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cecirdr
Head Merchant
Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 66
Location: Newport, OR USA |
| NWN Toolset possible bad news |
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First the good news....the beta toolset is out and you can play with it.
The bad news:
The EULA states that all content you create belongs to BioWare and you can't distribute it. They get the rights to not only any mods you create, but those of you who intended to publish your story as an RPG instead of a book won't get to own your work. Bioware has the rights to distribute or sell any mods made with their engine. You cannot....period...end of story.
Sigh....this won't affect many people, but for those of you who really felt that you had it in you to create an entire world with an intricate story...the NWN toolset appears like it won't be your tool of choice. (based on data from programs that have been modded like the Sims, about 1 in 1000 mods are of retail quality)
I know many of you may already be following this thread on slashdot and on bioware's forum, but here' s the address to one of the original threads so you can get it straight from the horse's mouth. Decide for yourself if the toolset will work for you.
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=31518&forum=37&sp=0
I'm not trying to cry out that the sky is falling or anything....sigh...but this does affect me so I won't be using the NWN toolset. It's looking like it'd be best for me to write a book or online novel versus trying to create it as an RPG. I really don't want to have to create my own RPG engine, but if EULAs are going to be this harsh...apparently you're supposed to do that if you want to create a shareware RPG. Oh well....at least some people *have* created their own engines...Spiderweb software creates shareware RPGs using his own engine. But his engine is definately showing it's age.
Anyway...most folks will be rejoicing about the toolset and that's how it should be. Happy modding. |
Sun May 19, 2002 10:07 pm |
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Yog Sothoth
The All in One
Joined: 01 May 2002
Posts: 1086
Location: Between Space and Time |
What a shame! 
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Sun May 19, 2002 10:25 pm |
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cecirdr
Head Merchant
Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 66
Location: Newport, OR USA |
I knew it....just as soon as I posted the original note, there's been an update in the situation. Here's a link to the updated thread on bioware's forum:
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=32499&forum=7
It appears that there's been enough of a firestorm about this that the legal folks at bioware are going to look at the EULA to see what they can do to make people more at ease.
What most of us are holding out for is not for the ability to sell a mod or RPG as shareware, but just to be able to hold onto the story as our own intellectual property. So, if we can't sell 'em, bioware can't sell 'em and if you create an awesome story ala Planescape:Torment, then you will always be listed as it's creator. Under the present EULA, if you create a fantastic, polished story and use the toolset to "publish" it, then Bioware owns it and could distribute it on say a CD of "best NWN mods" and never even mention your name as the author.
Here's hoping they'll fix the EULA. |
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Sun May 19, 2002 10:33 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Well, you are using their intellectual property to create your intellectual property. I think they definately have a right to protect their engine, especially when they are practically giving it away. It's not marketed as a tool for creating CRPGs and selling them. It's frosting on the cake for the fans. Although, I do agree, they should give recognition to those who create quality mods, like Valve did for the authors of Counter-Strike.
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Mon May 20, 2002 3:01 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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You should not be able to sell any mod you make for any game without going to the company and purchasing use of their engine. Period. That's the way it goes... just like you can't publish an unauthorized Star Wars novel without getting sued into the stone age.
What the EULA roughly says, like all of them, is that 'if anyone is going to make money off the results of this tool kit, it will be us'. Morrowind's EULA is the same way.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Mon May 20, 2002 3:14 am |
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cecirdr
Head Merchant
Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 66
Location: Newport, OR USA |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
You should not be able to sell any mod you make for any game without going to the company and purchasing use of their engine. Period. That's the way it goes... just like you can't publish an unauthorized Star Wars novel without getting sued into the stone age.
What the EULA roughly says, like all of them, is that 'if anyone is going to make money off the results of this tool kit, it will be us'. Morrowind's EULA is the same way.
Yeah...I think most of the problems with the EULA has been if the new games aren't credited to their creator...not making money off mods. ...Though the case has been made (by several folks who appear to have intended to try to make a low fee shareware game) that programmers use tools like borland to program, writers use tools called word processors...etc etc...in other words; other toolsets that required lots of effort on the part of programmers to create so other people could publish their original content using those tools.
So...I'm torn. If someone wanted to create a whole new world and original story with say the DS editor or NWN editor and try to make some money from it....perhaps they could buy a developers edition. It'd be like buying one time rights to something in order to use it for a new product. The cost of the editing tool would then be much higher for those wanting to publish for a fee. There might be 1 out of 1000 modders who have the talent to make a marketable product. It might be nice to see what they can do. But I figure that if most people can be assured that no matter how bioware management may change, no matter how many mod/expansion cd's might get pressed and sold, that they'd at least get credit for their RPG creation, they'd be happy.
Personally, I don't care to try to sell a mod. But if I spent 6 months creating an awesome expansion, I sure like to know I'd always be credited with that work. ...like writing an article for publication ( I used to work in the sciences and attributing work to the proper author was a *major* thing), or taking that once in a lifetime photo. I'm game...use it...use it for free, but just don't put your name on it.
Now....the psychological question....*Why* do I care? |
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Mon May 20, 2002 3:59 am |
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Pentallion
Guest
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If I write a book using Word I don't owe Microsoft a thing. Word is a TOOL. If I make a fantasy world using NWN's TOOLset I shouldn't owe them a thing either. It is a tool. They even acknowledge in their name for it, the TOOLSET, that it is a tool. As long as I don't use copyrighted materials such as making a Dragonlance Mod, the story is my own intellectual property.
The fact that they give the toolset away with the game is of no consequence.
Or are you implying you all owe Microsoft money for your websites because you used Internet Explorer during its creation and they GAVE you IE? |
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Tue May 21, 2002 11:36 pm |
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Beo
Space Defender
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 542
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quote:
Originally posted by Pentallion
If I write a book using Word I don't owe Microsoft a thing. Word is a TOOL. If I make a fantasy world using NWN's TOOLset I shouldn't owe them a thing either. It is a tool.
That is bad analogy.   Writing a book using Word is not copyright-violation. Writing a book using someone's ideas is.
quote:
Originally posted by Pentallion
...The fact that they give the toolset away with the game is of no consequence.
NWN's TOOLSET is a collection of tools including tilesets, objects, scripts, tiggers, and most importantly bif contents. Those are copyrighted stuffs. The stuff you create from the tool is a mod.
I will give you a better analogy. Take this forum software - phpbb. It is a free open-source bulletin board package. Can you customize it and create your own mods? Sure you can, the code is there and all you need is time. However, that does not mean you can turnaround and market your mod as mybb?
"They will visit you and jump on your legs until you give it back." -- paraphased from an influential almighty webmaster. 
quote:
Originally posted by Pentallion
As long as I don't use copyrighted materials....., the story is my own intellectual property.
Your story is your own intellectual property but the final product is not. You are not going to write your own game engine to power the game, right? What about other contents? arts? graphics? artifical intelligence?
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
You should not be able to sell any mod you make for any game without going to the company and purchasing use of their engine. Period.
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Wed May 22, 2002 1:32 am |
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Elenkis
Guest
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>>Or are you implying you all owe Microsoft money for your websites because you used Internet Explorer during its creation and they GAVE you IE?<<
It is not the same thing at all. With the NWN toolset you are editing an existing product, not creating a new one. You are using their artwork, their models, their textures, their tilesets and editing their game. |
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Wed May 22, 2002 6:25 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Exactly. Even if you do a so called total conversion they've still done 90% of the work for you. That sounds like call for a corporate licence lease on their engine to me.
You don't have to pay microsoft to make a game run in Windows and make money (at least, I don't think you do anymore. You used to.) But try and release Windows ByME which fixes all the bugs in Windows and makes it a flawless operating system and sell it for 20 bucks per person.
Then prepare for the Attack of the High Powered Lawyer Clones.
You used their engine, modified it to make it better even... but... it was theirs to begin with (after they legally bought it back in the early 80s) and SuperBill and his boys will demolish you over it.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Wed May 22, 2002 12:23 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
EverythingXen,
I am not sure about that. Microsoft still gets their pound of flesh, you had to buy Windows ME or 200x or what ever, before WindowsByMe can be installed. I am *sure* the attack of the clone lawyers would occur, but I am not sure they would have a good case (and MS has enough enemies that you could get them to fund an army of clone lawyers in defence).
The usual response of MS in the past has been to attack (phase 1 (to tie you up and buy them time)) and then buy out the offending company that dared to improve their product  while they are smoothering under the assault in phase 1. In defense of MS they usually buy out the offending company under very reasonable terms given the assault in phase 1 they could be a lot meaner than they are.
GREAT GUNS IN THE MORNING! Did *I* actually say something somewhat nice about BG and the boys at MS?!?!?! I must not be feeling well. Time to go home now  |
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Wed May 22, 2002 3:18 pm |
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