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Aren't many games that aren't considered RPGs actually RPGs? I mean, in any game with a main character that you control (eg Max Payne, Duke Nukem, Red Faction, etc) is an RPG. You are playing a role, after all. |
Tue Apr 09, 2002 8:16 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
In an true RPG (not a hybrid), your character will progress through a story and you will have an effect on the story through your decisions. You will also have some type of skill set that you can increase by doing things or gaining experience. Take Fallout for example. Things you do will effect how you are percieved by others. By completing quests or defeating enemies you gain experience, rise in levels and can then choose how your character improves.
NPC interaction is also important to the game.
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[ This Message was edited by: Val on 2002-04-09 15:27 ] |
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Tue Apr 09, 2002 8:25 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Yes Anonymous, you are right.
But RPG is specific genre of comp. games and it is not equal to ussuall meaning of word roleplaying in normal life, it is some kind of convencion in using terms.
In most game you play character or characters. But RPG game is only game where is interaction and way of developing more complex than just "go forward, strife left, shoot".
But it is sometimes difficult to say "this is RPG" or "this is action game with RPG elements".
I think we do not need to be too strict about it. I - for example - think that Diablo 2 is RPG. But someone can say there are not real conversations, game is too linear, it is pure action game.
But when we speak about RPG, we ussually mean game where you:
- play with character
- character is developing and you can somehow influence it
- there are NPC and dialogues with them
- there is good story and it should be not linear
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[ This Message was edited by: Danicek on 2002-04-09 15:28 ] |
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Tue Apr 09, 2002 8:25 pm |
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Guest
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quote:
On 2002-04-09 15:25, Val wrote:
In an true RPG (not a hybrid), your character will progress through a story and you will have an effect on the story through your decisions. You will also have some type of skill set that you can increase by doing things or gaining experience. Take Fallout for example. Things you do will effect how you are percieved by others. By completing quests or defeating enemies you gain experience, rise in levels and can then choose how your character improves.
NPC interaction is also important to the game.
Gothic fails on at least one of those characteristics; decisions generally have no effect on the story (at least after chap. 1).
Can you give an example of a hybrid? |
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Tue Apr 09, 2002 8:35 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Being strict, every game with the exception of Daggerfall would be a hybrid. That was the closest to a 'true' RPG as it came.
Classical hybrids would be Lands of Lore or Deus Ex. Easy to navigate but lots of interaction, and your character develops over the course of the game.
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Jaz |
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Tue Apr 09, 2002 8:53 pm |
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Lysander
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 265
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quote:
On 2002-04-09 15:53, Jaz wrote:
Being strict, every game with the exception of Daggerfall would be a hybrid. That was the closest to a 'true' RPG as it came.
Classical hybrids would be Lands of Lore or Deus Ex. Easy to navigate but lots of interaction, and your character develops over the course of the game.
Deus Ex fulfills every one of Val's and Danicek's requirements.
I just registered, by the way.
[ This Message was edited by: Lysander on 2002-04-09 16:02 ] |
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Tue Apr 09, 2002 8:59 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
quote:
Deus Ex fulfills every one of Val's and Danicek's requirements.
I just registered, by the way.
Yes, it is probably true, but because it fit even more in rank of FPS, we can call it FPS with huge RPG elements or probably FPS/RPG hybrid.
When game fulfills all requirements for RPG, but it also fulfills many/all requirements of other genre, we must call it hybrid.
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Moderator of General CRPG talk forum.
Moderator of Roleplaying forum.
[ This Message was edited by: Danicek on 2002-04-09 16:05 ] |
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Tue Apr 09, 2002 9:04 pm |
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Aprogas
Village Leader
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
Posts: 77
Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands |
In my opinion it depends on the player wether a game is an RPG or not. If the player puts himself/herself into the role of his character(s), he/she is playing the game as an RPG. If instead he/she stays in his/her own role as player, he/she is playing it as a different kind of game.
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Tue Apr 09, 2002 10:15 pm |
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ShadowMage
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 03 Apr 2002
Posts: 44
Location: Denmark |
quote:
But when we speak about RPG, we ussually mean game where you:
- play with character
- character is developing and you can somehow influence it
- there are NPC and dialogues with them
- there is good story and it should be not linear
But how about Final Fantasty or other console RPG's. I can think of many games which are linear, and are some of the best RPG's ever...after my opinion.
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Wed Apr 10, 2002 8:43 am |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
For me, if my character's stats change, it's a CRPG. 
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Wed Apr 10, 2002 11:39 am |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
I believe Gig is correct (in general) - if your stats change (in particular under player control) the game is considered RPG.
However, I put another requirement that rarely is met in a game. Your character (or characters) must be able to roleplay different "mindsets" and have the game respond differently. For instance, you should be able to play a "good" or "evil" aligned character and have the game perform differently (this is the heart of roleplay). Just having your stats change is good - but not truly enough for an immersive and true roleplay experience. You should also be able to roleplay different styles and have the game allow for these differences. For instance, to be able to approach the game issues as a pure melee (hit 'em hard and ask questions later approach) one time through and then as a subversive (thief for example) using more subtle techniques to solve the game issues is a real plus for a roleplay game.
Without these elements the game is really just an FPS (or similar) with window trappings trying to play to the RPG crowd.
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Wed Apr 10, 2002 12:51 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Ok, but character developement is only one of signs of RPGs.
Reason is obvious: character developement is very atractive and therefore is implemented in many games (Deus Ex, HoMM).
So we must have other characteristics.
I did not say that every RPG must have them all. I only said "this is typical for RPGs".
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Wed Apr 10, 2002 1:02 pm |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
I believe Gig is correct (in general) - if your stats change (in particular under player control) the game is considered RPG.
However, I put another requirement that rarely is met in a game. Your character (or characters) must be able to roleplay different "mindsets" and have the game respond differently. For instance, you should be able to play a "good" or "evil" aligned character and have the game perform differently (this is the heart of roleplay). Just having your stats change is good - but not truly enough for an immersive and true roleplay experience. You should also be able to roleplay different styles and have the game allow for these differences. For instance, to be able to approach the game issues as a pure melee (hit 'em hard and ask questions later approach) one time through and then as a subversive (thief for example) using more subtle techniques to solve the game issues is a real plus for a roleplay game.
Without these elements the game is really just an FPS (or similar) with window trappings trying to play to the RPG crowd.
Well, by this definition, the Final Fantasy series is not an RPG. Neither are most console RPGs (Chrono Trigger, Lunar, Dragon Warrior, etc.). In those games, you are the do-gooder, with usually only one way or "mindset" to solve the game (the Paladin way  )
Not that I would disagree with classifying Final Fantasy series as non-RPG; it smacks more of an adventure game to me... Then again, some others say RPGs only require stat advancement and such; in that case, the game Knights of the Round (a Final Fight/Double Dragon type game that has you gaining levels) would be an RPG, and it definitely isn't...
Then there are games like Zelda which has growth of character's abilities (but no input on the growth), and certain exploratory non-linear aspects to it; is that not an RPG? If Zelda isn't an RPG, then most of the Final Fantasy series really can't be one either (same amount of linearity, customization, etc.).
The only thing that separates Zelda from Final Fantasy is the combat system; one is action based, the other is command and turn-based. But action based games like Gothic are considered RPGs... So, this is a mess, isn't it?
I think what we have to do is just stop thinking in terms of distinct classes of games and treat them more like a continuum. An action based game that lets you determine your fate (or at least your interactions) must be considered at least a partial RPG. Thus, I think that in some ways Half-Life is more of an RPG than Final Fantasy VII; in Half Life you can actually kill the security guys who try to help you, whereas in FF VII you can't really commit an evil act.
So there are different types of RPGs; action-based or turn-based is one criterion for separating, although it is a gradient. The "RPG" I think comes from the non-linearity of:
1) Story
2) Exploration/quest capacity
3) Options for quest resolution
4) Character development and interaction.
No computer game satisfies non-linearity of story, so there are no PURE RPGs out there. A lot of games satisfy several of the qualities needed; Gothic satisfies 2 and 4 heavily, 3 somewhat, and 1 a little, so it is a relatively heavy RPG.
Final Fantasy satisfies 2 pretty well, but 1, 3, and 4 are almost totally linear; it is a very lite RPG, much less of one than Gothic, according to these standards.
Diablo also satisfies 2 pretty well, 4 somewhat, so it is also an RPG lite game.
So, in conclusion, I think that thinking in terms of the attributes that an RPG has, and then going from there in determining whether a game fits te bill is the way to go. You may not like my criterion for the prototypical RPG game, but you're free to adopt your own and apply them to what's out there
- Wind |
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Wed Jul 17, 2002 4:11 am |
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Rawis
Gorthaur
Joined: 01 Apr 2002
Posts: 1861
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Well, some games are just more "rpg". But i think the main thing is that that you can develop your character, use an invetory system, and make quests. Its like the Quest of Glory games, are they realy RPG games? I think they are very close, but its more like a adventure/rpg game... |
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Wed Jul 17, 2002 2:06 pm |
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