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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Another good day for the astrologers out there.
The European Space Agency's Huygens probe made a successful landing on the surface of Saturn's moon Titan yesterday. Read all about it on NASA's site here. Congrats to the Cassini-Huygens teams on their success!
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Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:55 pm |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
I have a generally bad feeling by the amount of money that went to this project. €450,000,000.00 feels wrong when you see all those homeless people and people dying from starvation.
I don't know wheater such science projects still can be justified, when you bbare this in mind. |
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Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:46 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
I see your point Bartacus, but the bottom line is that space travel has to reach a state where we can get off the planet and go live elsewhere eventually, otherwise the human race is finished, kaput, etc. Exploration and research is necessary, otherwise we are willingly confining ourselves to the place of our eventual extinction. If we shouldn't be considering it now, when should we start? The simple fact is that there will always a more immediate problem to spend money on, but is that a good reason to disregard the long-term survival of the species?
Having said that, I have heard elsewhere that NASA and ESA are notoriously wasteful, and they could do what they do for a fraction of the cost. Don't know much about this, I remember hearing it during one of them there home-made space-rocket competitions recently... anyone got any thoughts on this? 
Anyway, good news, I reckon. Forgive my ignorance, but is Titan the one whose atmosphere is similar in some ways to Earth's? And how should I be pronouncing "Huygens"?   |
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Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:33 pm |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
Huygens is pronounced the same way as the Dutch word: huis.( didn't help you one bit most likely, but it's kinda difficult to write it when I believe there's no English similarity.)
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Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:59 pm |
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tolgerias
High Emperor
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 770
Location: The Netherlands |
 I walways find it very funny to hear english people say huygens, it always makes me laugh. And yes, Titan is the one with the earth-like atmosphere. the only small problem is that the temperature is always very far below 0 C  |
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Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:36 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
I had been watching the first picture of Titan before I came here.
Interesting but I've to agree with Bartacus's, it's simply too expensive.
I think all were surprised, at least the scientists looked suprised, that everything had worked. After 7 years and so many miles, it's good to see all those little devices, cameras working. It could have been much worse. At least the $$$ were not thrown away. |
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Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:39 am |
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Sir Markus
Counselor of the King
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 369
Location: Columbus, Ohio USA |
I think the Titan mission is worth every penny. People always want to use overpopulation as an excuse to nix space programs, and it's just not a good argument. Stop having so many babies and people won't go hungry.
I was stunned with those pictures from Titan, I thought that probe was a great thing for the English space program especially after the failure of the Mars probe last year. |
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Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:23 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Im not bashing you in this post Bartacus, I know you are speaking from your heart. There is alot of needless suffering, and it seems that throwing money into space is just that.
Everytime a thread is made about some miraculous space exploration, the obligatory lament of "so many people hungry" rears it's ugly and trite head. Why explore at all, then?
I'll tell you why, because all those proverbial starving masses here on earth are the result of political problems, not a lack of money. Besides the obvious spectacle of the Tsunami disaster, mass-starvation in the year 2004 is not due to anything more than politics. There's plenty of money in those perpetual regions of starving people, the general population just never sees it. Mugabe isnt starving, I can guarantee you that, and I dont think Kim Jong ill is starving either. I'll bet you money the king/lord/emperor or whatever of Sudan didnt go to bed hungry last night. The Saturn moon probe doesnt make a wit of difference when it comes to white farmers being thrown off their land, thus plunging the land into forced famine when noone else tends the fields. The Saturn program doesnt have any bearing on whether dictators allow their populations to eat, or instead spend money on building themselves more lavish palaces or armies. Saturn moon probe doesnt make one ounce of difference when it comes to the effects of the anti-industrial and anti-agricultural movements in some places, that while good-intentioned on the surface, keep alot of these 3rd world impoverished and almost primitive regions just that, impoverished and darn near primitive in the year 2004. And finally, ESA cant do alot about cultures that are practically forced to keep utterly self-destructive or repressive customs or practices in the name of the preservation-at-all-costs of "cultural heritage". You know that darn Western world, better to starve to death than be "Westernized" and be able to feed yourself and your family. Feeding people is the UN's job anyway, go talk to them about passing a brand new resolution about it. Yep, that $450,000,000.oo could sure feed alot of people for a day, then what? Noones stopping anyone from writing out a check to their favorite charity, BTW.
You can throw money at a problem all day long, but if the cause of the problem is not dealt with, it will only repeat and sometimes be exacerbated. For example, the American education system. See the AIDS problem in Africa.
Really tho, I actually doubt the probe is even up there. It's all just a big space-race hoax to freak out NASA, and by proxy the whole of America itself. It has to be! Come on now people, a moon of Saturn? Do you actually believe that? Those pics look totally fake!
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“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:27 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
*Pulls out an umbrella and holds it over her head.*
Going to try and rain on my parade, eh? 
@piln: They are wasteful. That's why the eventual privitization of space travel is so important. The private sector can always beat the pants off the government simply because it is so adaptable. They'll leap at implimenting new technologies and ideas while a government sponsored agency drags it's feet.
Now NASA is going to start getting some competition. And competition means an increase in supply, which means cost drops if you want to stay in the game. Yay!
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Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:51 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
I am sure that many similar things were said about the early steam engines ... why waste money on this hunk of stinky noisy junk. Answer: (from the proud new owner of a steam engine in 1820) "In 100 years or so, chines that are decended from this engine will raise the standard of living for 99% of the human race ... for 40% of the human race those standards will be the higher than anything you can presently imagine.
Or to put it another way, it is very hard to put a price tag on knowledge.
And Bart, look at it this way ... how many starving people are there? 1 billion? So this project took 0.7 dollars from each of those hungry people. Not much really. The real problem is not even political (in my mind at least). There are just too many people on the planet.
Also, care must be taken when talking of the 'poor'. The 'poor' in NYC still have access to food, water, heated shelters, medical care, education, the right to vote, and most have more than one TV. Compared to the 'poor' of 200 years ago ... well, today's down trodden have it much better. In fact much better than the 'middle classes' 200 years ago. I am sure that this is also true in most of western Europe.
Okay, the homeless might not have TV's but they are a story for a different day!
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Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:04 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Lintra
Okay, the homeless might not have TV's but they are a story for a different day!
They do have cell phones however. Geez, I don't even have a cell phone. Maybe I should look into a career as a NYC bum.
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Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
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Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:14 pm |
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tolgerias
High Emperor
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 770
Location: The Netherlands |
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
Yep, that $450,000,000.oo could sure feed alot of people for a day, then what? Noones stopping anyone from writing out a check to their favorite charity, BTW.
You can throw money at a problem all day long, but if the cause of the problem is not dealt with, it will only repeat and sometimes be exacerbated. For example, the American education system. See the AIDS problem in Africa.
But you have heard about the hungry man, the fish and the fishing rod, haven´t you? |
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Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:07 pm |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
A great achievement! I cannot possibly describe how pleased I am with this mission - the furthest landing yet achieved, amazing pictures and sound, and enough data to keep the scientists occupied for years to come.
On the matter of money, frankly I think it would have been cheap at twice the price. It seems heartless to say it, but while that money could have been used to feed the hungry or house the destitute, it is much better spent on scientific research. Mankind cannot be allowed to stagnate - we must push forwards. It is a simple fact that if we share money and resources out equally, the whole world will go hungry and feel needy. Sometimes the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many.
And anyway - the mission budget was nothing compared to the budgets we allocate to those whose job it is to find new and improved ways to blow each other to smithereens.
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Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:28 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
They do have cell phones however. Geez, I don't even have a cell phone. Maybe I should look into a career as a NYC bum.
Wow, and I thought I was one of the few people left in the world with out one. Nice to know I have company! Tell you what Val, to make us both feel better I suggest we both not call each other at least twice a day on our cell phones *grin*
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Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:03 pm |
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