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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
| Do all CRPGs involve combat and MUST they? |
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I have considered this topic off and on over my CRPG lifetime (longer than most from a recent poll  ). There are really two questions. As it is apparent there are many studious and considered adherants of role playing games in general (and computerized versions of the same in particular) - help me out here please.
First, have there been any (successful or not so) CRPGs whose primary focus was NOT on combat and killing? The closest that comes to mind for me is Thief wherein you didn't HAVE to kill (too much) but then you didn't advance your character either so I tend to not put Thief in the usual CRPG class.
Second, does any viable alternative (over combat) come to mind that could still make for a fun CRPG? To be honest, I have racked my brain off and on for several years and have come up empty - but then I do not pretend to be the brightest star around - so please help me out if you can.
Do not get me wrong, I enjoy combat - but sometimes I long for an alternative that is still enjoyable.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
Sat Apr 27, 2002 10:26 am |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
I know of one CRPG, which is actually a MMORPG, where you can't kill anyone or enything. It's "A Tale in the Desert".
When playing the beta, I was actually amazed that it was so much fun 
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Kewl quotes:
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Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Sat Apr 27, 2002 10:38 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
I do not think it is necessary, but I didnt play RPG without a lot of killing. |
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Sat Apr 27, 2002 11:12 am |
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vaticide
Put food in here
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 1122
Location: One step behind a toddler bent on destruction. |
Right now all non-MMORPG CRPG's I can think of all have killing. As Myrthos said, "A Tale in the Desert" contains no violence, but games such as Ultima Online you can play without killing anything either-- so long as you just want to interact with people, and perhaps sell things.
I think a game that allowed you to complete it with no violence would be interesting. I don't think I would want that to be the only way to play the game, however. Perhaps for a thief or something your goal would be to sneak past all the creatures and characters in a dungeon to escape. I know that the 'Thief' games were like this, but there was some violence and killing, nor was it really a RPG. (Right? I didn't play them).
Interesting idea, though.
-vaticide |
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Sat Apr 27, 2002 2:57 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Thief was a bit like it even though violence was involved... though the more thief-like you acted, the less violence you needed to fufill a certain mission.
Deus Ex was that as well. I got extremely far into the game with just my favorite combination of weapons- taser and pepper spray...
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Jaz |
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Sat Apr 27, 2002 3:23 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Arcanum was other game that had a lot "not necessary" killing. You could complete most quests without killing.
But well, that doesnt mean creatures. |
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Sat Apr 27, 2002 4:29 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Remember, CRPGs are based on RPGs in general... and RPGs were originally based on tabletop wargames. All RPGs are designed with combat in mind... it has to be a serious consideration. RPGs are about playing heros... and what makes a hero? The willingness to stand up for the rights and lives of others. Can you do this in real life without combat and killing? I certainly hope so!!!
But in an RPG? Well... how do you resolve conflict? If there is no conflict, then one could argue there is no need for heroes. Unless you based an RPG on real life... for example, a firefighter or doctor RPG. They're heroes.
You could design a RPG without killing (a lot of superhero RPGs only have you 'knock out' an opponent by default... killing is optional), but without combat? Yes. You can. You can design and RPG based around diplomats, doctors, firefighters, negotiators. With a certain type of gamer this would work.
But would it in a CRPG? Not likely. People want to overthrow the dark overlord, beat his best warriors, spell battle his greatest wizards. Less people want to work on usurping his political power base, severing his resource lines, and convincing his most powerful allies that what he is doing is wrong. Yes, there may be players who want to do that... but a CRPG has to appeal to the masses.
I love the combat. I want to drive my boot of justice into the teeth of evil. I don't want it to be the focus of the game, no... a good story is always better than lots of combat... but I want it there. In that game of diplomats, I quite freely admit I would want to play a bodyguard. I enjoyed taking the 'we're cops' minimal violence approach to Deus Ex (I was dissappointed when enemies started appearing in large packs that left no choice to isolate and knock out)... but I also enjoyed getting a target lock with the GEP and blowing a robot into a billion microfragments. It's all about moderation.
I don't mind being a general in a fantasy RPG advising the king on military matters... but I want to personally lead the troops into battle.
That being said there are RPGs out that you do not need to focus on combat to enjoy.
Vampire and Mage from White Wolf. Fighting in either tends to lead to grisly demise. You can play a magical tank blowing things to pieces, yes... but with a good Storyteller, you don't need to. Work on living in the shadows gathering information and achieving personal enlightenment.
Shadowrun and Cyberpunk: Oh yes... you CAN Rambo rather nicely in these games. You might even make it home alive if you're lucky. But once again, with a good gamesmaster the games can easily be more about stealth, information gathering, and getting the job done without a body count. After all... in Shadowrun if you case the target properly, have a great plan, slip in and out and get the target all without firing a single shot... you're rewarded in more ways than one. No hospital time or magic healing. No cyberware replacements. No ammo replacement fees. More experience. A better rep for being efficient. All tangible rewards in Shadowrun.
D&D 3rd Ed: "What? Is he nuts???? DND is the STAPLE of INTENSE COMBAT TO ADVANCE!!!". Yes... that is true. But 3rd edition introduces the marvelous Challenge Rating system. MOnsters have challenge ratings, yes... but you can assign the same ratings to everything else in the game. Sneak into the orc camp and rescue the kings daughter without alerting the orcs? Give it a challenge rating. Picking a lock? Challenge rating. Persuading the Ogre to leave the bridge. Challenge rating. Persuading the Ogre to join your party. HIGHER challenge rating.
Challenge Ratings = Experience points. You could have a bard go to level 20 without every swinging a sword if you have a creative DM. As for classes like fighter? Well...
So... taking the focus off of combat ultimately resides in your players and gamesmasters rather than on the game itself.
We're seeing more and more of that being designed by the game developers of CRPGs. You can win Fallout without firing a bullet at the end. Most of the important things in Arcanum can be accomplished without killing things (though unfortunately you do need to kill things if you want to explore any dungeon or advance past level 20). They're the gamesmasters giving us options. So it's up to us players.
But they have to include the option to blitzkrieg the game as well if they want it to sell. You have to appeal to as many people as you can.
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Sat Apr 27, 2002 4:32 pm |
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bearcub
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 28 Mar 2002
Posts: 45
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The only other type of rpg that could make it w/o killking would be some type of finacial or baron type of game. Then again it could be boring to. |
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Sat Apr 27, 2002 11:22 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
I do not think that game with good story, graphics etc. but without fighting will be boring.
You can run around whole nice and interesting world, speek with NPCs, solving ridles and quests, increesing stats.
But well... ...I like fights . |
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Sat Apr 27, 2002 11:54 pm |
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DzD
Unknown
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 7140
Location: Sweden |
quote:
Originally posted by Danicek
But well... ...I like fights .
And trolls.
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There once was a youngster, DzD
Whose avatars numbered infinity
But I must admit
His latest, a hit
Cuz the Little One's a mystery to me
Written by - dteowner |
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Sat Apr 27, 2002 11:56 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
quote:
Originally posted by DzD
quote:
Originally posted by Danicek
But well... ...I like fights .
And trolls.
Yes exactly...fights and trolls....uhm and fight trolls. But well trolls are nice creatures, I like them, but I like also fight them. |
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Sun Apr 28, 2002 12:05 am |
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awdougherty
Guest
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I think it's possible, but probably very hard. I also don't know how necessary it really is to do this. I like the ability to talk my way through the final battle (or something equally clever that doesn't require the typical showdown), but I think CRPG's need some combat for one reason.
It's really the only type of action that the computer can do really well. Sure there are jumping puzzles, but RPG players tend to crap on RPG's that utilize them. Pure stealth cirumvents this, but I think the option to fight should be there (just as the option not to fight should be there). It's all about options, fighting should be one of them. |
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Wed May 01, 2002 5:17 pm |
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Rawis
Gorthaur
Joined: 01 Apr 2002
Posts: 1861
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quote:
Originally posted by Danicek
Arcanum was other game that had a lot "not necessary" killing. You could complete most quests without killing.
But well, that doesnt mean creatures.
Hehe, i killed everyone that was only a little evil or rude. mwahahah |
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Wed May 01, 2002 8:27 pm |
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Vorador
Guest
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I think that a CRPG does not have to have fighting in it, but it is a nice way to see how you've improved by killing bigger monsters. |
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Mon May 06, 2002 2:41 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
I have been involved with RPGs since the mid 70’s. I have played dozens of them, and I have even gotten my name in the credits of one (just through informal talks with the author). So I feel I can speak with some authority on this topic.
The question of whether an RPG needs killing is an old one. It seems that the general consensus is yes it does. The threat of death – or loosing a favorite character – adds some element of realism as well as excitement. It is kind of like trying to take the fighting out of hockey…it just isn’t the same game…but like hockey too much of it ruins the game.
On the theoretical side, think of an RPG game simulating politics. With out natural or accidental death it would be incomplete. No power vacuums left by sudden and unexpected demise of a leader. Since accidental death is included a player should be able to increase the odds of accidental death, like shaming a powerful leader into skydiving, or mountain climbing. Since that can be done, why not go all the way and allow a truly realistic game complete with assassination – not something I condone or would ever do in real life, but think how exciting it could be in a game – the risk of having it traced back to you, planning it all out, the thrill of getting away with it.
On the practical side, in a CRPG you do not have the clash of will allowed by an RPG. In an RPG you are trying to compete against the game master, his world, or you are playing to gain power vis-à-vis the other players. In a CRPG the only oppenent is the world, and the AI of the characters in the world is not up to the challenge of oratory, or clever planning. Example: the PC has a grudge against an NPC shopkeeper. Scripting a reaction to protect its shop against PC thievery is fairly straight forward. Scripting a proc to have him react to the PC trying to open a competing business down the street and put him out of business is harder. Now consider the PC trying to buy out the shop keeper, or what happens if the PC aquires his mortgage and close him out. Or what if the PC runs for and is elected to local office and tries to rezone the neighborhood so the NPC has to move his business. Or a PC with a high charisma may try to incite the neighborhood to riot against the NPC on trumped up charges of being a child molester. See where this leads? For each violent action there are thousands of non violent actions, all of which have to be somehow accounted for.
So lacking the option of giving the player the challenge of unbounded creative thinking, CRPGs replace it (to a large extent) with the challenge of figuring out the right tactical approach to a combat situation. Where the combat situation is governed a relatively limited number of possible combinations. |
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Mon May 06, 2002 6:41 pm |
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