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Thief 3: Project Leader Replaced
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Wolfgarou
Guards Lieutenant
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Joined: 29 May 2003
Posts: 163
   

Either Warren is losing his focus (due to his 'celebrity' status he's enjoying) or he's under lots of pressure from Eidos. This doesn't look good for Thief3, but I'll hold any judgement until the final product comes out.
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Post Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:59 pm
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piln
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK
   

Well, it's true what he said - it's so late in the dev cycle that Smith leaving now will probably make little or no difference to game content. They announced quite a while ago (couple o' months?) that all content was in place, all that remains is bug-fixes and tweaking.

They made some poorly-considered decisions on DX2, but that (and DX1) was a title that has very few similar games to compare to (on console, anyway). Stealth action is pretty well-established now, so hopefully the likelihood of them trying new things and not really executing them properly is low. It's easier to predict what will work when you're dealing with a fairly specialised genre that has been explored & refined by yourself and your competitors (plus, it sounds like they have a reasonable amount of testing time, a luxury which DX2 seemed to lack).

It amazes me how readily people will latch onto the negative, rather than taking a neutral or positive outlook. Warren Spector is responsible for a handful of the best games ever made (especially in the RPG genre) and has really only been involved with one stinker in his entire career (I actually quite liked DX2, but I'm going with public opinion here). Instead of taking one vague piece of news on its own and drawing the worst possible conclusion from it, why not take all the information you have about the people involved and weigh it up to come to a more realistic and balanced conclusion?

Anyway... no-one knows til the game is out. DX2, industry rumours, staff squabbles, etc. are no indicator, good or bad, of Thief3's quality. Personally, I haven't read/heard/seen a single thing about the game itself that worries me. Changes to the formula seem to be minor, and all make sense when I think about their applications in gameplay. So my outlook is currently neutral (because there really is no way to tell til you play it), with a hint of positivity (because I like what I've seen/read so far).

@Lady Armageddona: Harvey Smith was project lead on DX2. Spector was kind of "overseeing" the project, but Smith made all the decisions (Spector apparently retained the right to overrule any design decisions, but didn't exercise it even though some of them gave him cause for concern. I think he probably should have done in some cases, but hey, Smith will have learned from his mistakes). I hope the rumour about Spector working on Tomb Raider isn't true... I suppose if he rescues it from its evolutionary dead-end (which it reached halfway through the first game, IMO!) and turns it into a good game, then fine, but I think he has the talent and vision to work on more sophisticated subject matter (his old games like UW and SS prove that).

Oh well, as always, time will tell.
Post Sun Apr 04, 2004 9:28 pm
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Wolfgarou
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Joined: 29 May 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by piln

I hope the rumour about Spector working on Tomb Raider isn't true... I suppose if he rescues it from its evolutionary dead-end (which it reached halfway through the first game, IMO!) and turns it into a good game, then fine, but I think he has the talent and vision to work on more sophisticated subject matter (his old games like UW and SS prove that).


It's true, as far as I know. I remember reading it in another website (avault, I think. Not too sure...) that Eidos hired Warren to do the next Tomb Raider under the Crystal Dynamics dev team.
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Post Sun Apr 04, 2004 9:36 pm
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piln
High Emperor
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Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK
   

quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgarou
quote:
Originally posted by piln

I hope the rumour about Spector working on Tomb Raider isn't true...


It's true, as far as I know.


Bleeeaaargh...... so much for positivity - Spector's a has-been!!! Kidding... but I do find it an odd move. Well, so far I've regarded him as the best game designer I'm aware of, hopefully the brilliance he's shown in the past will appear again. Fingers crossed.
Post Sun Apr 04, 2004 9:46 pm
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
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Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia
   

I think Piln is mostly right. The project is late is development and it's unlikely there could be major changes. It's clear Randy Smith was upset over something and his replacement by an Eidos manager, together with Spector heading the next Tomb Raider indicates to me that Ion Storm is no longer a creative development house but an extension of Eidos.

On Spector himself there's no doubting his past successes - but a lot is really owed to Doug Church and Paul Neurath or later even Ken Levine. I do know his innumerable speeches of late have all pointed to games I'm not really interested in playing and he most definitely is not living up to his own preaching about creativity and not relying on sequels and license tie-ins.
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Post Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:32 pm
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OctarineDragon
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Joined: 28 Nov 2003
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Just a thing about the current fashion of Warren-bashing. While we don't know if Warren has actually ruined anything in either T3 or IW, it is certain that he is not a very good PR person. Still, from my perspective he could completely mutilate the Thief, DX and SS franchises and I still would forgive him. Hell, if Savage Empire alone would be the single decent game he ever worked on, I'd forgive him. I had so much fun with that, and still do. So what if Spector turned into Dr. Spektor for real - I'm not surprised, it was all there in that game.
Post Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:25 pm
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Wolfgarou
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'hopefully the brilliance he's shown in the past will appear again'? It would be great if the next Tomb Raider game is at least good enough to score a 4/5 stars in the reviews (not that I played the previous TR games ). I bet 'Warren Spector feat Lara Croft, Tomb Raider <insert title>' will be an action RPG with 1st and 3rd person viewpoints and has skill based options with the ability to upgrade bionic parts with nanites. Oh yeah, it has stealth missions too.
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Post Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:40 pm
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Arma
Mysterious Lady
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Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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Well, I think that whatever Mr. Spector does to the next Tomb Raider cannot be any worse than what Lara had done to herself (I mean to what the developers of the previous games did to her), and Crystal Dynamics have given us some of the best action-adventure titles around (mainly the Legacy of Kain series, and the latest was also pretty good despite the awful camera), the only sad thing about that title is that the author behind the story of the LoK series (Amy Heiding) has parted ways with CD.
And about people going into negativism about a title that hasn't even come out yet -> I think this is some kind of a self-preservation thing - The point is that when the game actually comes out and is much better than one has expected is certainly better, isn't it?
Post Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:47 pm
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Dwango
Head Merchant
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Joined: 06 May 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by piln
Personally, I haven't read/heard/seen a single thing about the game itself that worries me. Changes to the formula seem to be minor, and all make sense when I think about their applications in gameplay.


Here are the minor items I quibble with:

Functional Water Removed.
Leaning removed.
Third person view added (possible replacement for leaning)
Rope arrows removed.
"Velcro" gloves added.
Levels smaller than first two games, sectioned with loads.
Automatic unlock of door if player has key on keyring.

Add on the disappointing result of Deus Ex:IW.

Add on the apparant turmoil at Ion Storm. Remember, Warren admitted there were expressed differences involved in Randy's removal, so this was not a nice, easy parting (i.e. retirement or moving on after a job well done.) And Randy was not the first to leave from the earlier thiefs, there was Tom and Emil.

Maybe... just maybe... any single one of these changes and events does not matter (though I'll argue about rope arrows.) But altogether, these changes and events seem to make this game less of a thief game and more of something else.

So, the game is not yet out, and may still be a good game. But I doubt it will be a Thief game.

Oh, and by the way, the bug fixing phase can be the most important part of development. Its the phase where bugs are removed... or not.
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Post Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:33 pm
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piln
High Emperor
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Joined: 22 May 2003
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Location: Leeds, UK
   

Well, most of the items you mentioned are just superficial details - not fundamental to the core gameplay. Third-person view? I don't really want it either, but if you don't like it, don't use it. Yeah, i too was disappointed when I first heard that rope arrows are gone, but then I heard about the climbing gloves. Cool, something different. No water - so what? It's not needed. Obviously, if water and rope arrows were removed from Thief 1 or 2, you'd have problems. This is not Thief 1 or 2. Only a moron would remove items and then make a game that still required them. I'll go out on a limb here and say I'm 100% certain this will not happen. If rope arrows and swimming were essential in making you feel like a thief, then maybe you'll struggle with Thief3, but I doubt that is the case. If the new game's levels are designed to exploit the climbing gloves and other new gadgets in clever and demanding ways, then what's the problem? Thief 2 fixed just about everything that was wrong with Thief1, and left no major problems, except an occasionally fiddly inventory (fixed in Thief3, perhaps?). I'd prefer to see the series continue to evolve rather than just get a "level-pack" sequel.

The only thing that worries me is the loss of leaning. That's something that added to the feeling of concealment and sneakiness, and I think to remove it (even if its viewing benefits can be acheived in other ways) is a mistake. Oh well, I am disappointed about that, but I can stomach the loss of one nice feature if the rest of the game is up to scratch.


quote:
Originally posted by Dwango
Oh, and by the way, the bug fixing phase can be the most important part of development. Its the phase where bugs are removed... or not.


Absolutely. But Randy Smith (project lead) wouldn't be doing any bug-fixing himself, so his absence at this time = no difference.

It's pretty clear that arguments were had, but they could have been about a billion-and-one things. We will not find out for a long time (if ever) what the disagreements were over, and to try to turn this vague bit of news into a direct conclusion of the forthcoming game's quality would be to kid ourselves; similarly, to identify the announced feature changes as mistakes outside the context of the levels & missions would be unscientific, to say the least. There is only one reliable conclusion: we don't know; we must wait.
Post Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:12 pm
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Lanael
City Guard
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Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 147
Location: lyon - France
   

@drhruin : Doug Church, Paul Neurath and Ken Levine... great designers !!!
Together they could make cool games.
Let's make a petition to have them creating a new game !!

@dwango : Leaning removed. ??????? really ?!!! they do that too ???
argh.


@piln : ok, but what about small levels... are you ready to wait in front of a loading screen during 30 sec. every 200 meters ?
Has someone tested the memory footprint of DE:IW on is PC ?
I bet it's not the same than the FarCry's one !!
Size of levels ? a detail....
Post Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:09 pm
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piln
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK
   

quote:
Originally posted by Lanael
@piln : ok, but what about small levels... are you ready to wait in front of a loading screen during 30 sec. every 200 meters ?


Depends what's in 'em. If I get a loading screen after crossing from one end of an empty corridor to the other, then I'll be irritated. If I make significant progress between loads, then I don't care. Like I say, this is something that's impossible to assess out-of-context. We need to see/play the levels before we can tell if it's been handled properly.
Post Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:24 pm
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Lanael
City Guard
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Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 147
Location: lyon - France
   

Ok, if you played DE:IW, you know what it will look like, huh ?

What makes me sad, is the small levels' size is not a technological problem. PCs have plenty of memory. Xbox not.
It's quite obvious they code AND design this engine for the Xbox and then spend a few minutes to compile it for PC... remember : the V1.0 of DEIW has a config.ini full of lines for Xbox. Worse : some of them has the xbox default on the PC version...
Size of textures someone ?
Anyway all that stuff has been said by enough people I guess...

The DEIW 1.2 patch makes it playable and not looks like a beta version.

Thief:DS will benefit of that.

It's time to turn the page and look to the east ( Xenus, Stalker, etc... )

Hey, I'm out of topic !!!
Post Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:20 pm
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Dwango
Head Merchant
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Curiouser and Curiouser...

Now Harvey leaves. And Spector is going to work in another division.

I wonder, not to be negative , but you think Ion Storm will be folded?

This is sounding more like what occured before Black Isle Studios was closed by Interplay.

As for rope arrows being replaced by gloves, sounds like this will promote quicker game play. Instead of having to carefully aim and place a limited supply of rope arrows, I won't have to worry as much. I can go up any allowed surface, making stealth a little less of an issue as I can quickly get away. I also lose the neat function of being able to lower myself into the middle of a room, which was used ingeniously in Thief 2.

As for wanting just an expansion pack, I don't think this is necessarily true. One could always add new ideas to the existing Thief world, without removing some of the tried and true ideas. An expansive open world is a fresh idea that would not have interfered with the thief way of playing. And, many times evolution becomes change for change sake.

As an example, Baldur's Gate 2 basic structure was not changed much from the original. But they added improved versions of similar functions (better storage, romance plotlines, open ended chapter two, etc) Many reguard Baldur's Gate 2 as even better than the first, with truly minor changes.

Ultimately, I am really against Thief 3 being just another Stealth Action game. Thief is really about being a ghost, going through level without ever being seen or known. That is what I loved about the original which made people love or hate thief. The patience, the planning, the careful timing, the scouting, all to get through a level perfectly. Change this and I won't buy it, because it won't be a Thief game anymore.
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Post Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:15 pm
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piln
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK
   

quote:
Originally posted by Dwango
Ultimately, I am really against Thief 3 being just another Stealth Action game. Thief is really about being a ghost, going through level without ever being seen or known. That is what I loved about the original which made people love or hate thief. The patience, the planning, the careful timing, the scouting, all to get through a level perfectly. Change this and I won't buy it, because it won't be a Thief game anymore.


Well, yeah, I agree with you there. But my point is that there's no point taking on a negative frame of mind now, because there's absolutely no way to know what the game's like til you play it. Set your face against it, and when you finally play it every flaw will stick out like a sore thumb and you'll pay little heed to the good points. That's exactly what happened with DX:IW. People latched on to superficial details and convinced themselves not to give the game a fair crack of the whip; after playing the disappointing demo and reading the tirade of abuse on the Ion Storm forums, I made an effort to approach the full game with an open mind, forget my preconceptions, and I actually ended up enjoying it.

You made an example of the climbing gloves which illustrates my point - you assumed that the climbing gloves will offer no opportunities for cerebral play. Why? The new game has moving light & shadow, right? So, what if there's a climbable section that's right in the path of a patrolling torch-carrying guard, with "features" on the wall (gargoyles, vegetation, whatever) that you must hide behind when the guard comes by? Does that sound like it would require no thought or mastery of stealth? Why not give the level designers a little credit - which do you think is more likely: that they said "yeah, give 'em climbing gloves, and stick a climbable wall there, there and there, that'll do," or that they actually put some thought into it and tried to make some entertaining and taxing challeneges out of the new content?

Of course, I don't know that positive state of affairs is true, either. My point is that, with very little effort, we can twist every piece of information we've received into overwhelmingly positive or negative speculation, but that we have no concrete evidence to base that speculation on. The closest we have is the gameplay movies, which I thought looked pretty good, but even they are unreliable. It's misguided to try and guess what the game will be like before we have any way of knowing, and convincing yourself of things that may or may not be true will only colour your judgement o the game when you finally come to play it.
Post Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:14 pm
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