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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
Beside RPGs, i have played quite a lot of recent FPS games, such as Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, and Soldier of Fortune 2. So far i noticed the opponents or enemies in these games react more realisticly and unpredictable compare to NPCs in RPGs. For examples, they will dodging, running away or firing while running, throwing back grenades that you thrown at them, call for help or sound a alarm devices, flip over a tables & hiding behind the tables while holp up single hand & firing away randomly,
arrange or coordinating a assaults with their partner, lean out behind a objects or peeking around corners to check up what you doing, etc etc. As i read in one review, the most recent FPS such as The Thing includes innovative trust/fear system - your squad members actually have emotions, hearing sounds/strange voices, cringing in fear, goes berserk (shooting everywhere), suspicious toward you, throw up when seeing decapitated bodies, etc etc.
I never encounter any NPC or opponents in RPGs with this kind of excellent reactions. NWN? the monsters only throwing themselves at you; Dungeon Siege?, the only different is more monsters throwing themselves at you; Diablo 2?, there is truckload after truckload of suicidal monsters and still keep respawning; MW?, everyone played it knew what is the answers.
My questions/issues:
I think Gothic is better in this case, but do you think the NPC's A.I come close in comparison to most FPS games out there?, How about compare to Thief series, System Shock series, Deus Ex? (i never play them, are they truely RPGs, A.I good?), why the developer didn't start early to build a sophisticate NPCs in RPGs compare to FPS? because impractical to do in consideration of budget/money?, RPGs player don't care much about it?, to much aspects need be considered in RPGs compare to FPS?, there's more important aspects in RPGs compare to NPC's A.I?
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Thu Aug 22, 2002 5:59 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
The Gothic NPCs are IMO better than those in Thief which were the best before Gothic came along. They had a very, very good news system in the Thief series.
System Shock II and Deus Ex are RPGs - you have character development and a deep story. The Thief games aren't RPGs but mission-based tactical sneakers - in the realms of shooters/sneakers they are my absolute faves, however (well, another shooter player here  ).
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Thu Aug 22, 2002 6:15 am |
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Erb Duchenne
Slayer
Joined: 08 Jun 2002
Posts: 987
Location: malaysia |
Yes, I agree the AI in FPS games are better than RPGs. And I wouldn't expect any less.
RPGs are more exploration, character building and character interaction based... so there's a lot to draw you in with and immerse you in a rich surrounding.
In an FPS, its, well, just shooting and more shooting. So they have to work harder to draw you in and keep you immersed, and they do this with awesome graphics, great sound f/x, a kickass storyline and of course... good AI.
But RPGs, especially like Gothic and Morrowind, are trying to catch up with the FPSs in all these other respects.
But you can only work on AI so much. So to take it a step further, multiplayer options always take a game further. Obviously, multiplayer against/with humans is as real as you can get... but you can only shoot for a few hours. MMORPGs however feel so real, players have been on days at a time, wrecking their jobs and love lives.
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Thu Aug 22, 2002 7:34 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
quote:
Originally posted by Erb Duchenne
... but you can only shoot for a few hours. MMORPGs however feel so real, players have been on days at a time, wrecking their jobs and love lives.
Side note: Shoot for a few hours? I remember 3-day-LAN parties where I have been alive and shooting for... err... about 20 hours a day  .
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Thu Aug 22, 2002 7:38 am |
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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
Actually, almost every RPG that has came out in the last year has better AI than any shooter. They can interact with the player, in FPS games the non-violent interaction is often minimal. Ofcourse the combat AI is better in FPS-games, since without good combat AI, those games wouldn't be any good. In RPGs, the focus is definately on different issues, mainly on the interaction and reactional patterns.
I think comparing the AI between CRPGs and FPSs is like comparing the controls between a racing game and a FPS, they are not serving the same purpose.
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Thu Aug 22, 2002 8:48 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by mDrop
Actually, almost every RPG that has came out in the last year has better AI than any shooter. They can interact with the player, in FPS games the non-violent interaction is often minimal. Ofcourse the combat AI is better in FPS-games, since without good combat AI, those games wouldn't be any good. In RPGs, the focus is definately on different issues, mainly on the interaction and reactional patterns.
I think comparing the AI between CRPGs and FPSs is like comparing the controls between a racing game and a FPS, they are not serving the same purpose.
This is a very good point. A shooters primary purpose is combat - so they should be good at it. An RPG usually has many elements - of which combat is only one. Sometimes the combat AI may not be as developed but there may be a well-developed dialogue tree, factional system or other complex functions.
Also, NPCs in RPGs (!) are often individual characters that need to be scripted, as opposed to more generic waves of cannon fodder that are all scripted the same way.
Still, I think there are examples good AI in RPG combat. When facing a enemy party in BG2 (and other IE games), mages in particular were well scripted to use the spells they had, first triggering defensive spells and then attacking from a distance while the fighters closed in. A lich with Time Stop was a real pain! |
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Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:32 am |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
A shooters primary purpose is combat - so they should be good at it. An RPG usually has many elements - of which combat is only one.
I know most of us like to THINK CRPGs are about other things than combat - but let's be honest here. Virtually all CRPGs ARE primarily about combat. We like to pretend there is a lot more there - but actually the vast majority of what we do in a CRPG is fight - so the onus is on the manufacturer to make it as fun as possible.
Pick any recent CRPG - Gothic for example (since I suspect most of us here have played it and liked it - I know I did). What did you do in that game the majority of the time? Fight with something or somebody. In fact, that was the primary way to gain experience and thus improve your character (this is true of virtually every CRPG ever made). If the primary requirement to advance your character is to fight (and/or kill something), then by design that means the major thrust of the game (from a practical point of view) is combat.
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Thu Aug 22, 2002 4:46 pm |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
Yeah, there is point in what Joey Nipps says. Since quite a lots of CRPGs stress on combat, it is about time we need to see some improvements in this aspect. Although CRPGs & FPS is two different genre, and CRPGs focus is on interaction and reaction patterns, there's no reason why CRPGs shouldn't have a interesting combat system. With creativity & some innovations - we probably would see some really interesting gameplay elements in CRPGs.
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Thu Aug 22, 2002 5:11 pm |
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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
It's true that most CRPGs are focused mainly on combat, but I still think that comparing FPS-style AI to a CRPG AI is pointless. Like Dhruin said, in CRPGs most of the AI workload is placed on individual NPCs, the 'named' characters we interact with, as well as tracking the players involvement in different scenarios. The rest is focused on general NPC patterns and combat logic.
In FPS, the only focus is on general type combat logic. And even then ,in many FPSs, the illusion of intelligence is done by scripted events, not real AI programming. Sure it might look nice when a group of soldiers run for cover when you enter the area. Most likely they just have a triggered script with perhaps some random places the enemy can run to. Furthermore, in FPS-games the advancement is linear, so the general design of the gameplay is much more straightforward, leaving more time to the AI design and scripting.
I'm not saying that RPGs couldn't improve their combat AI, but think about this: every improvement in the non-combat AI and interaction will help steer CRPGs away from simple combat-oriented games since the game can be played with pure social interaction and stealth, instead of combat. Planescape:Torment is a good example of this, hope there will be more games on that category in the future. If the developers instead focus on combat AI, we will never see rich NPC interactions or complex plots.
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"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance."
- George Bernard Shaw
- Member of The Nonflamers' Guild -
- Member of The Alliance of Middle-Earth -
- Worshiper of Written Word -
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Thu Aug 22, 2002 6:36 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
A shooters primary purpose is combat - so they should be good at it. An RPG usually has many elements - of which combat is only one.
I know most of us like to THINK CRPGs are about other things than combat - but let's be honest here. Virtually all CRPGs ARE primarily about combat. We like to pretend there is a lot more there - but actually the vast majority of what we do in a CRPG is fight - so the onus is on the manufacturer to make it as fun as possible.
Pick any recent CRPG - Gothic for example (since I suspect most of us here have played it and liked it - I know I did). What did you do in that game the majority of the time? Fight with something or somebody. In fact, that was the primary way to gain experience and thus improve your character (this is true of virtually every CRPG ever made). If the primary requirement to advance your character is to fight (and/or kill something), then by design that means the major thrust of the game (from a practical point of view) is combat.
Yes, you're right; combat is usually the vehicle used to advance through the game and therefore combat should be as well-designed as possible.
I still think most RPG players are looking for character advancement, exploration, story and (hopefully) role-playing over combat. Hopefully new generation RPGs will push the envelope in these areas further.
But, for now, you're right to point out that combat is central to most RPGs |
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Fri Aug 23, 2002 1:56 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
...I still think most RPG players are looking for character advancement, exploration, story and (hopefully) role-playing over combat. Hopefully new generation RPGs will push the envelope in these areas further.
But, for now, you're right to point out that combat is central to most RPGs
It is true that role-playing elements is imperative in CRPGs, that is also why we called them as CRPGs, not FPS. But combat aspect also important to many CRPGs player, if not, why Diablo 2 became so popular?.
quote:
Originally posted by mDrop
I still think that comparing FPS-style AI to a CRPG AI is pointless. Like Dhruin said, in CRPGs most of the AI workload is placed on individual NPCs, the 'named' characters we interact with, as well as tracking the players involvement in different scenarios
Pointless?, i mean why don't we add some combat innovations in CRPGs like in FPS (not comparing CRPGs with FPS in other aspects). I don't want CRPGs' combat system to remain in primitive state or fall too far behind FPS. It is another "fun" factor for us. Off course, if some player don't like fighting then avoid them - such as in Morrowind. That's what we call role-playing - we choose to become fighter or not. I think Gothic is good example for CRPGs with interesting combat moves but still maintained an interesting story and NPCs interaction....i hope Gothic 2 would does better or improves in those aspects...
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Fri Aug 23, 2002 5:31 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by mDrop
It's true that most CRPGs are focused mainly on combat, but I still think that comparing FPS-style AI to a CRPG AI is pointless. Like Dhruin said, in CRPGs most of the AI workload is placed on individual NPCs, the 'named' characters we interact with, as well as tracking the players involvement in different scenarios. The rest is focused on general NPC patterns and combat logic.
In FPS, the only focus is on general type combat logic. And even then ,in many FPSs, the illusion of intelligence is done by scripted events, not real AI programming. Sure it might look nice when a group of soldiers run for cover when you enter the area. Most likely they just have a triggered script with perhaps some random places the enemy can run to.
I'm not sure if I'd say that. I remember in Halo that some of the enemies would flank me, even if I ran into areas that they were probably not supposed to be in. In Half-Life, enemies would use grenades when I went behind cover and guns in open field fire, and often would try to flank me, as well. It's still primitive, but I would not say they were totally scripted like they were following a totally rigid path. Some very basic situation-based programming was done.
quote:
Originally posted by mDrop
I'm not saying that RPGs couldn't improve their combat AI, but think about this: every improvement in the non-combat AI and interaction will help steer CRPGs away from simple combat-oriented games since the game can be played with pure social interaction and stealth, instead of combat. Planescape:Torment is a good example of this, hope there will be more games on that category in the future. If the developers instead focus on combat AI, we will never see rich NPC interactions or complex plots.
Well, the problem is that when a game *does* focus on combat, has the majority of gameplay be *in* combat, then they better make sure that combat is done as best they can, and that definitely includes improving the AI. I can understand if combat is not very important to the game, but most CRPGs I've seen have been VERY combat-heavy, including BG-series, Gothic, Wiz 8, etc. Thus, I would really like more complex combat tactics to be employed by AI-controlled creatures and characters, as gameplay suffers otherwise. If a game does not focus on combat (like Fallout, to some degree), then it can get by with mediocore combat logic (but Fallout's was actually decent...).
So the solution should be to improve the combat systems and AI or to focus more on other things...
- Wind |
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Fri Aug 23, 2002 6:58 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
@gg - [This reply is tongue-in-cheek ]
Since Diablo 2 has no combat AI that I'm aware of, it's an example of how *not* improving combat AI can sell a zillion copies...
OK, seriously; I take the point that combat AI could be improved in RPGs.
Think about how much harder it is, though. An enemy in a FPS will typically have a primary weapon and possibly grenades. Most of the "AI" is really a few evasive routines. How much harder is it in, say, a D&D game where the enemy may have a unique combination of spells and items. In addition, you the player, will have a unique combination of spells and items. True AI requires the enemy to have a complex understanding of how best to utilise their traits to counteract the specific combination of abilities your character/party has. And we haven't started the evasive routines yet. And the next NPC has a *different* set of abilities and your party has equipped different equipment.
I just think the best developments in RPGs will be in immersive environments and NPC interaction - this is why Gothic is so popular with us. But of course, improved combat is always welcome |
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Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:12 am |
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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
@Goofy, I mean pointless as in comparing apples to oranges. The gaming genres are so different. FPS is focused on combat. I could start a similar discussion and complain that driving vehicles in GTA3/Renegade/Battlefield is not as good as driving in Gran Turismo or Sega Rally.
And like I said, there's nothing wrong in improving combat AI in CRPGs, but I'd rather have the developers focus on more complex interaction. Did anybody understand my last paragraph in the previous post? 
Like I said, if the focus is shifted from developing more complex creature AI to developing combat AI, the games will never be able to shift away from combat oriented games.
So to restate my point: I'd rather see CRPGs to remain and improve as CRPGs, not to turn into pure combat-oriented games. In Dungeon Siege, a good combat AI is must, but in Planescape:Torment it is not. And CRPGs are going to a direction where combat can be avoided. The AI research is still young and needs a lot of work before we see really realistic AI in either genre. I'd rather have the genres focus on their main points. If CRPG designers shift their focus away from the role-playing elements of the game and instead tweak only combat-AI, I'll stop playing.
EDIT: forgot to add one point. Just choosing to be a figher or not is REALLY far from roleplaying, from my perspective. Maybe we just want different things from games, then.
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"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance."
- George Bernard Shaw
- Member of The Nonflamers' Guild -
- Member of The Alliance of Middle-Earth -
- Worshiper of Written Word -
- Proud supporter of E.H.U.A.O - |
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Fri Aug 23, 2002 10:41 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
@mDrop
My whole point is to improve or innovations in combat A.I for CRPGs, didn't mean to change CRPGs to FPS. I also do not mean want all developers to focus or working on combat A.I ony. I don't think there is much different on our opinions...
quote:
Originally posted by mDrop
....And CRPGs are going to a direction where combat can be avoided...
.
Hmm....that is quite difficult to accomplish, i think most gamer wants combat as one of the important element in CRPGs, and game developers knew this. (ONE of the important elements - since many CRPGs until now always have a important part = combat; AND do not mean other aspect such as character interaction is not important--- ).
quote:
Originally posted by mDrop
Just choosing to be a figher or not is REALLY far from roleplaying, from my perspective. Maybe we just want different things from games, then....
Able to choose fighter is ABSOLUTELY NOT a complete definition for roleplaying, it is ONLY one of the examples i used...
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Fri Aug 23, 2002 1:31 pm |
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