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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Nice :]. |
Fri Jun 14, 2002 11:44 am |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Now that's what I call roleplaying, GhanBuriGhan. Nice story, and one of those I could tell a couple of  .
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:50 pm |
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Mattias Kreku
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 387
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quote:
Originally posted by GhanBuriGhan
Ah, all that negativity. I probably should stop reading here. But hey, let me tell you about what playing MW was like for me yesterday.
I took the liberty to edit out the (great) story to say that: Damn, I wish Morrowind would seem as interesting as the story you just told.
Let me give you my version: I enter the tomb, kill whatever attacks me in 2 blows with my daedric sword. I loot everything useful, using a light spell and detect enchantment spell. The end. Not quite as interesting huh? |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:08 pm |
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bpdlr
Village Dweller
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 24
Location: London UK |
Great story. Maybe you should apply for a job at Bethesda and help them release a better game next time?
I can appreciate that there are those of you here who are hardcore RPGers and who are used to applying a heavy dose of imagination to any game, but my question is: why should you be forced to?
Playing MW is like reading a novel where 80% of the pages are blank - sure, you can use your imagination and write the rest yourself, but you'd feel pretty cheated wouldn't you?
Most of the other RPGs I've played have not had such huge holes in them. The only games I've played that are similar to MW are MMORPGs, where the other PCs provide the missing story and interaction.
I've just ordered a copy of Gothic to see what all the fuss is about. And Neverwinter Nights is out on the 1st July apparently. I was really hoping MW would not be all graphics and no soul, but I'm sorry to say that I'm really disappointed. I hope that the modders get going and build a decent game where Bethsoft left off.
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--
BaZ
Boycott Shampoo!
Demand REAL poo! |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:13 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Mattias - well, it's all i how you play the game. So don't complain. Freedom, you know
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:23 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
bpdlr, EVERY single Elder Scrolls game was like this: they give you a framework for your imagination. What you make out of it is up to you. Some enjoy that, others don't.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:25 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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quote:
Originally posted by Mattias Kreku
Let me give you my version: I enter the tomb, kill whatever attacks me in 2 blows with my daedric sword. I loot everything useful, using a light spell and detect enchantment spell. The end. Not quite as interesting huh?
No. And thats why I am having fun and you are not  But so far at least MW has been full of such stories for me, night after night. I am only level 7, afre playing for about 3 weeks, I cant play much more than 2-3 hours a night. But these stories, thats why I enjoy it. Maybe they are mostly in my mind, but so what, if its fun, huh? |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:32 pm |
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maddog0606
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 20
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quote:
Originally posted by bpdlr
I can appreciate that there are those of you here who are hardcore RPGers and who are used to applying a heavy dose of imagination to any game, but my question is: why should you be forced to?
I know this is just my opinion but for any type of visual or written entertainment you need to apply imagination (even heavy doses) to get full enjoyment out of it.
For me books are a good example. I love reading Sci Fi and Spy novels (got to be over 300 pages or it isn't worth the money). For a lot of people (including my wife) books are just words on paper and they can not get into them. You need a heavy dose of imagination for these types of books. When I read any book it's like a movie goes through my mind while I'm reading the book. And to tell the truth, I prefer books over movies.
I have to apply imagination to ANY game I play because that is the only way I can rationalise why I look so stupid while clicking the mouse, hitting the keys on a keyboard and yelling and screaming at an inanimate object (the computer). |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:38 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by GhanBuriGhan
Maybe they are mostly in my mind, but so what, if its fun, huh?
Thank you, Ghan, this has essentially been my (and other's) point all along. It IS mostly in your mind. The game manufacturer gave us a lot of very pretty graphics - and you HAVE to do the rest.
Just like the Ford Escort - billed by the manufacturer as a sports car, made to appear very pretty, very "sports car looking", pretty racing stripes, pretty interior with "race car like" gear shift and console. But that is it. It is NOT a sports car by any objective definition. But, because it is pretty and the manufacturer did a nice marketing job - people can sit in it and PRETEND they are in a sports car. But their pretending doesn't make it a quality sports car - nor does your ability to pretend and make stories in your head make this game a quality CRPG.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:45 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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quote:
Originally posted by bpdlr
I can appreciate that there are those of you here who are hardcore RPGers and who are used to applying a heavy dose of imagination to any game, but my question is: why should you be forced to?
Well its true, in general the trend is to be less and less forced to do that. We started (I only remember a few of those vaguely, mostly this was before my time) with text adventures, where we had to imagine everything, just as in books, the only thing different was that it was, in a way, interactive. These evolved until very high leveles of interaction were possible and text parser had reached a high standing and online playing became an option, and so the muds came to be and are still played and enjoyed by people today. Then came simple graphics, nothing more than symbols, and these evolved to better and better 2 D graphics. The pinnacle of these was probably Ultima 7 with unprecedented interactivity in a sprite based world. Then came the 3D games and started evolving from great but limited dungeon crawls (Ultima underworld) to ever more sprawling worlds with better and better 3D graphics. So we get used to applying less and less imagination as the representation of the world becomes more and more realistic. And our demands grow, in that respect. Now there was the one game (at least I personally dont know another), Gothic, that showed us how real a 3D roleplaying world can be made. That game had other limitations (lets just mention the fact that there was only one main character to play), but now there is a feeling that anything less is a step back. Even I feel that, but because I like to use my imagination, having grown up with those other games, I can admire Morrowinds grand scope and the freedom it gives both in creating characters and the actual game itself and look past that. But we are always approaching the goal of an alternative reality, that we can not distinguish from ours anymore. That is still some ways off, but of course, thats where we are going. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:58 pm |
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Mattias Kreku
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 387
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quote:
Originally posted by GhanBuriGhan
Maybe they are mostly in my mind, but so what, if its fun, huh?
With an imagination like yours I'm not even sure you need a game to play. But that's also the problem for the rest of us. That entire story is just that.. great imagination. None of it appears in the actual game. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:02 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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Oh yes it does, I actually added very little. Only the qualitative descriptors are "by my imagination" the fight, the healing, the uanbility to move, etc., that is all supplied by the game, just as it happened yesterday. I didnt "invent" this story, merely presented it in the way it "felt" to me. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:09 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Yes GhanBuriGhan has good imagination, but it is not everything in his/her mind.
This game has a lot to offer to someone with good imagination and relation to such games like this one.
I just do not believe you can really think that this game is completly empty. But you are saying it... |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:16 pm |
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Mattias Kreku
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 387
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quote:
Originally posted by Danicek
I just do not believe you can really think that this game is completly empty. But you are saying it...
That's not really what I am saying. What I am trying to say is that the game itself lacks imagination. To me it feels dead. That's why it can't hold my attention.
Let me give you an example from Gothic to show the difference: I had just started playing and had just entered the Old camp. I am an explorer so the first thing I did was just stroll around, enjoying the scenery, the (audial) idle chatter among the townsfolk and so on when I'm suddenly approached by some guy who hits me in the face and steals all my ore (money). Not only that, he insults me and the nearby guards laugh at me. So I stand up, find a house to sleep in, go buy a sword, come back to the guy and start beating him up. Then he runs away and I run after in pure rage. After a short chase he runs into the castle and I run after and the guards at the castle gate gets pissed and runs after me. Someone fires an arrow, killing the guy I chase and I am beaten senseless by the gate guards. I'm not gonna tell the degrading end to this story But I hope you get my point. I did not have to imagine any of this. It just happened around me. I reacted to actions taken by npc's around me. This just doesn't happen in Morrowind. Sure, the hostile mobiles attack you, but try this in a dungeon.. Stand behind a stalactite and wait. The monsters will never reach you, they will never figure out how to get around any obstacle. Just use a bow and take them out. In gothic the damn creatures would climb mountains to get to you!
To me Gothic set a standard I had never before experienced and Morrowind just doesn't reach up to them. In MY opinion. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:31 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
Imagination is and likely will always be a part of CRPGs - in fact, I want it that way. However, Morrowind has gone too far by not simulating things that should be simulated. For instance, my first character was envisioned by me (roleplay right?) as a tough, in your face melee type (also a female if that matters). She also had a strong disdain for magic and wasn't very bright. So far so good - I chose starting race, etc. so that I didn't know squat about magic and had no skills relating to intelligence in my major or minor areas. She was tough, melee oriented and not very bright.
So, first day out she was presented with several challenges - locked doors that she wanted to get beyond and locked chests that she wanted to loot (she has to make a living somehow - right?) - I did NOT envision her as a highly moral or lawful character so stealing is not a problem with her. So she found a locked door with nobody watching (remember she is not real subtle and cannot hide worth a darn and knows it) and raises her weapon against the door - and much to her dismay what happens? Whoosh - not the mighty clank of steel against wood she expected. Huh? So she did it again and again and again - whoosh, whoosh, whoosh. Hmmm, so she found a smallish chest that was locked - think surely she could bash it open with her weapon or pick it up and bash it open on the ground or stomp on it or piss on it until it rusted open or SOMETHING!
DAMN - DAMN - DAMN. Why have the gods forsaken me (this is what she was thinking). What was I thinking? Worthless damn simulation of a world. So what did I have to do to play this character? I had two choices - both bad. Pick up lockpicks and start using them or pick up magic and start using that. BAD BAD BAD design.
Worse, why should she even be able to use a lockpick at all? She has an Int of 32 (this is actually her final int after 28 levels) and a Lockpick skill (in the miscellaneous class) of only 35 (again after all the increases of 28 levels of picking locks). The simple truth is that the simulation is so poor that she has no REAL problem getting into even locks at 100 (yes she does have to use the better lockpicks). BFD
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:54 pm |
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