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The Changing Face of the RPG @ GamePro
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Roqua
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump
   

quote:
Originally posted by niteshade
Roqua,

Sorry you had asked me for the game industry definition several posts ago. Basicaly it's what other people had said, a game that focuses on character development and where your characters skills play a part in the game. Obviously it's not a definition you agree with. Obviously it's not a perfect definition. But if you did say a definition for the term needed to be given. I would be hard pressed to come up with a better source for the definition then the one used by millions in the gaming industry. Really it's all just a name anyway, is the name really that important? Ultimately all that matters is weither you like a game (or a genre of games) or not. Any other words we use are just to make sure we all understand what each one is talking about.

To address one of your comments about PS:T (since that's a game I love dearly) you said it was not the character building that made it a RPG, but the story. I actually quite disagree there. I would agree that it was the story that made it a great game that I loved. But if it did not have the character building and stat based combat it would not be a RPG. You could just easily have such a great story in an adventure game or a first person shooter for example. And without the character building and stat based combat, those would really be your only two options left to tell that story in.


Just for clarification, I didn't say the story made PS:T an rpg, I said PS:T was story driven. When I, or most people seem to argee, that the story is what kept you going in that game, not getting lvl 8. What makes PS:T an rpg is a different topic I never touched on. I only said that PS:T wasn't character devlopment focused, it was story focused. I think it would be hard to dispute this, unless people just skipped all the dialogue and killed everything to get that next lvl.

quote:
I would be hard pressed to come up with a better source for the definition then the one used by millions in the gaming industry.


I really doubt there are millions in the gaming industry, if you mean community then I am with you. But I am saying they are wrong. Their definition is wrong. I am saying an rpg should be an rpg. The "gaming industry" is saying anything with a little stat building, no matter how poorly implemented and stupid it is, is an rpg even if it does not even come close to being an rpg.

Non-rpgs with some rpg elements can still be great games. I don't see what the big deal is of labeling things correctly. Scientists seem to get a kick out of it, maybe we should try it.

What we have now is a cow, with huge utters, and a big penis. Its just not right. Iy doesn't make sense. Hermaphradites are not men and are not women, so they get a different label. It really makes sense to label things correctly.
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Post Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:33 am
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yeesh
Keeper of the Gates
Keeper of the Gates




Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 113
Location: Unofficially representing Queens
   

Let me see if I can break this down as tiny as I can. You don't have to look to the pizza industry; the analogies are right here in the games industry.

There are sports games. They are simulations of sports. Is playing those sports games anything at all like actually playing sports?

There are shooters. They are simulations of shooting. Is playing an FPS anything at all like running around shooting things with a gun?

There are CRPGs. They are simulations of RPGs. Is playing a single-player CRPG anything at all like roleplaying with a group of people?

If you're telling me that you infuse your 6-person party in a Goldbox game with personalities and backstories, then I certainly believe you. But how can you not see that this "characterization" takes place entirely in your head? There are no personalities in the game. There are no backstories in the game. How are you defining it as an RPG based on factors that are not present in the game? And before you say that it's because you can spend hours rolling for stats when you create your party, keep in mind that I'm the one arguing that stats and advancement are what makes an RPG, not you.
Post Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:04 pm
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Roqua
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump
   

quote:
There are sports games. They are simulations of sports. Is playing those sports games anything at all like actually playing sports?


Lot closer now than when techmo bowl was hot, and keeps getting more and more realistic.

quote:
There are shooters. They are simulations of shooting. Is playing an FPS anything at all like running around shooting things with a gun?


Half Life 2 was a lot closer than Woldenstien 3d.

quote:
There are CRPGs. They are simulations of RPGs. Is playing a single-player CRPG anything at all like roleplaying with a group of people?


It can be. And rpgs are simulations themselves. Is NFL football a simulation of something else? You did not say why a crpg cannot simulate an rpg, because guess what? It can. And some have. Again, you are very wrong.

quote:
If you're telling me that you infuse your 6-person party in a Goldbox game with personalities and backstories, then I certainly believe you. But how can you not see that this "characterization" takes place entirely in your head?


Where do you think it happens in a pen and paper game? Do you think after rolling ability scores the character creates his own personality and background? And the characterization does not exist in my head when I can roleplay the persona I created in a game world that presents me with choices to do so. That is called an rpg. Are you reading my posts?

quote:
How are you defining it as an RPG based on factors that are not present in the game? And before you say that it's because you can spend hours rolling for stats when you create your party, keep in mind that I'm the one arguing that stats and advancement are what makes an RPG, not you.


I never played all the goldbox games, but I did play a krynn one and the buck ropgers games that used the same engine. I didn't really care for the krynn one and that was a long long toime ago so I can't speak for it, but buck rogers gave a valient attempt at providing role playing opertunities, and did very well due to the technical limitations of the time.

And my likes and preferences have no impact what so ever on what makes an rpg. Logic and reasoning do. I like certain games. I loved most of Gothic 1 and 2 and VTM bloodlines, but I don't claim they are rpgs. I can't stand NWN, but it is an rpg. Definitions and facts do not care about what I like or what you like. An rpg is an rpg and you have done and said nothing to change this. Every arguement you presented has been shot down and you still have not made a valid statement of why anything with a couple stats, besides a lot of games with stats, should be called something they aren't. This statement is utter nonsense and amounts to meaningless jibberish. This is your whole arguement.

Explain how this statement makes sense and is consistent and does not contradict itself: Anything with a couple stats, besides a lot of games with stats, should be called something they aren't.

I do not understand it or buy into it because it is contradictory, makes no sense, silly, and would give anyone a headache trying to figure it out. And this is your arguement.
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Post Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:26 pm
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yeesh
Keeper of the Gates
Keeper of the Gates




Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 113
Location: Unofficially representing Queens
   

A game is an RPG to the extent that it is focused on developing the power of your character(s).

That's the definition. You haven't shot it down. All you do is CONSTANTLY bring up that games besides RPGs have stats and developing your character, to which I reply again and again Yes they do. Those are called games from other genres with RPG elements, because the primary focus is elsewhere. Then you say But they have stats, so you're wrong. Then I sigh.

But as far as what I've been trying to say with my last 2 posts, you are just not hearing me. I don't know if it's willfully or what, but I'll try again:

Basketball is a game played on a court with at least one basket and one ball. It involves dribbling, passing, shooting, jumping, and a lot of running. That's basketball. Basketball video games, which clearly have basketball in the title, are meant to simulate (to varying degrees) basketball, but they involve none of the skills listed above. The video games require a completely different set of skills, and I hope you can agree that the experience of playing basketball with two full teams on a nice indoor court and the experience of sitting on your couch playing a basketball video game by yourself are totally different. Not a little different, not mostly different, but 100% completely different. Playing the video game version is not at all like playing the game on which it is based.

Can we agree on that? Yes? No?

RPGs are pen and paper games like D&D and Call of Cthulu and V:TM. They are about getting a few or a bunch of people together for the purpose of role-playing. Each person (apart from the GM) plays one character and is rewarded for staying in the role of that character while the game is played. See? Role-playing. CRPGs, on the other hand, are not about that. They simulate the game mechanics, like character building, combat, and rewards, but they dispense with the actual role-playing. They require a different set of skills. You are not rewarded for staying in a role, and nobody ever asks you to come up with an explanation for any one of your actions. In addition, you often control many people at once, but that's fine because you're not supposed to act in the role and interests of each individual party member, but only in your own interests as a person trying to beat a game.

Just because we use the term "role-playing" doesn't mean there is any actual role-playing, just like Sports games don't actually involve any sports at all. The video games are simulations of the "real" games, and do not entail the same gameplay, even though they mimic the same rules.

Even if you disagree, could you at least acknowledge that you understand what I'm saying here?
Post Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:37 pm
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Roqua
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump
   

quote:
Originally posted by yeesh
A game is an RPG to the extent that it is focused on developing the power of your character(s).

That's the definition. You haven't shot it down. All you do is CONSTANTLY bring up that games besides RPGs have stats and developing your character, to which I reply again and again Yes they do. Those are called games from other genres with RPG elements, because the primary focus is elsewhere. Then you say But they have stats, so you're wrong. Then I sigh.

But as far as what I've been trying to say with my last 2 posts, you are just not hearing me. I don't know if it's willfully or what, but I'll try again:

Basketball is a game played on a court with at least one basket and one ball. It involves dribbling, passing, shooting, jumping, and a lot of running. That's basketball. Basketball video games, which clearly have basketball in the title, are meant to simulate (to varying degrees) basketball, but they involve none of the skills listed above. The video games require a completely different set of skills, and I hope you can agree that the experience of playing basketball with two full teams on a nice indoor court and the experience of sitting on your couch playing a basketball video game by yourself are totally different. Not a little different, not mostly different, but 100% completely different. Playing the video game version is not at all like playing the game on which it is based.

Can we agree on that? Yes? No?

RPGs are pen and paper games like D&D and Call of Cthulu and V:TM. They are about getting a few or a bunch of people together for the purpose of role-playing. Each person (apart from the GM) plays one character and is rewarded for staying in the role of that character while the game is played. See? Role-playing. CRPGs, on the other hand, are not about that. They simulate the game mechanics, like character building, combat, and rewards, but they dispense with the actual role-playing. They require a different set of skills. You are not rewarded for staying in a role, and nobody ever asks you to come up with an explanation for any one of your actions. In addition, you often control many people at once, but that's fine because you're not supposed to act in the role and interests of each individual party member, but only in your own interests as a person trying to beat a game.

Just because we use the term "role-playing" doesn't mean there is any actual role-playing, just like Sports games don't actually involve any sports at all. The video games are simulations of the "real" games, and do not entail the same gameplay, even though they mimic the same rules.

Even if you disagree, could you at least acknowledge that you understand what I'm saying here?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
That's the definition. You haven't shot it down. All you do is CONSTANTLY bring up that games besides RPGs have stats and developing your character, to which I reply again and again Yes they do. Those are called games from other genres with RPG elements, because the primary focus is elsewhere. Then you say But they have stats, so you're wrong. Then I sigh.


This isn't what happened at all. I said games, like the wrestling game is focused on character devlopment to an extent even greater than most rpgs. And a lot of rpgs are not focused on character devlopment at all, like PS:T. Characetr development (or non-story character devlopment in a literal sense) is not even close to being the main focus. Nor is it in most rpgs, pen and paper or computer.

quote:
But as far as what I've been trying to say with my last 2 posts, you are just not hearing me. I don't know if it's willfully or what, but I'll try again:


I feel the same way, it is insane you do not understand the basic concepts I'm talking about.

quote:
Basketball is a game played on a court with at least one basket and one ball. It involves dribbling, passing, shooting, jumping, and a lot of running. That's basketball. Basketball video games, which clearly have basketball in the title, are meant to simulate (to varying degrees) basketball, but they involve none of the skills listed above. The video games require a completely different set of skills, and I hope you can agree that the experience of playing basketball with two full teams on a nice indoor court and the experience of sitting on your couch playing a basketball video game by yourself are totally different. Not a little different, not mostly different, but 100% completely different. Playing the video game version is not at all like playing the game on which it is based.


Yes, we can agree on this.

quote:
RPGs are pen and paper games like D&D and Call of Cthulu and V:TM. They are about getting a few or a bunch of people together for the purpose of role-playing. Each person (apart from the GM) plays one character and is rewarded for staying in the role of that character while the game is played.


I quess a player can be rewarded for roleplaying good.


quote:
See? Role-playing. CRPGs, on the other hand, are not about that. They simulate the game mechanics, like character building, combat, and rewards, but they dispense with the actual role-playing.


Only when they despense with roleplaying options, as a lot of games have roleplaying in them, you are 100% wrong.

quote:
They require a different set of skills. You are not rewarded for staying in a role,


Where is this rule of rewarding those that stay in role?

quote:
and nobody ever asks you to come up with an explanation for any one of your actions.


But p&p sessions are centered around people explaining why their characters did what they did?

quote:
In addition, you often control many people at once, but that's fine because you're not supposed to act in the role and interests of each individual party member, but only in your own interests as a person trying to beat a game.


Yes, if you are not playing a role playing game. Do you excusivly play console titles and hack n' slashes? This is a nonsense statement. It really is. When you create a character, and give that character a personality, and are presented choices in game that would be in line (or as close to in line) with that personality and the choices that character would make then you are roleplaying.

Do you understand this? Please answer yes or no? This is a very important question.

If you are just a person trying to beat a game, you cannot be roleplaying. Thats what people do when they play mario and zelda and doom. In a roleplaying game you create a character, are placed in a situation, and react to your environment based on the rules of the world, your characters stats, and his personality.

quote:
"Just because we use the term "role-playing" doesn't mean there is any actual role-playing, just like Sports games don't actually involve any sports at all. The video games are simulations of the "real" games, and do not entail the same gameplay, even though they mimic the same rules."


And pen and paper role playing games are simulations of "real" fantasy worlds (or real worlds, like modern gurps and CoC). RPGS are simulations. CRPGS are simulations with the same goal. Games that are called rpgs but are not have different goals, different criteria, and are not rpgs or simulations thereof.

quote:
Just because we use the term "role-playing" doesn't mean there is any actual role-playing, just like Sports games don't actually involve any sports at all. The video games are simulations of the "real" games, and do not entail the same gameplay, even though they mimic the same rules.


Sports games a a simulation of a real event. Rpgs are a simulation of a fake event. A computer and an rpg can take the place of dm and other players. As with a p&p rpg you provide the character and personality of the character, the evnts of the game will provide the situations where you are presented with choices you make on your characters behalf that you think are in line with his personality. Or in another words, ROLEPLAY

quote:
Even if you disagree, could you at least acknowledge that you understand what I'm saying here?
'

I undertsand 100% what you are saying. I'll even re-paraphrased it for you and expand on it so you can agree with it more.

Any game that is focused on character development, besides a lot of games that fit this bill, are rpgs. Games that are not focused on character development, like PS:T and a lot of others, are also rpgs because... And rpg doesn't stand for rpg and shouldn't be used to describe an rpg, but also include non-rpgs for no coherent reason. Also, no crpg has ever included roleplaying in any way.

Sports games are simulations and are not the same as the real sport. Rpgs and crpgs are both simulations of the same thing, but something iffy nonsense, spin, spin, crazy blabbity blah.


And that leads us back to:

Anything with a couple stats, besides a lot of games with stats, should be called something they aren't.
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Post Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:45 pm
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Stranger In A Strange Land




Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia
   

I can't keep up with you two so my question is simple: where was the roleplaying in ToEE? Great game...I must have chosen the optional roleplay-free path.
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Post Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:09 pm
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Roqua
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump
   

quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
I can't keep up with you two so my question is simple: where was the roleplaying in ToEE? Great game...I must have chosen the optional roleplay-free path.


ToEE had more choices to make than most games I have played. I figure you know this as you played it. So you must be asking where the story is?

I have heard people say it is storyless, but it is just different. the story isn't handed to you on a platter with a big pink bow and a note that says, "you are stupid, here is plot and story and everything; go get em tiger."

The plot and story is broken up into little nite sized chunks that can be attained by doing something then talking to someone. I'm sure that is how your old campaigns went.

If a game doesn't start with you as a lonley farmboy who is dreaming of better things and one day in a flash of horror has his privates touched by the bad guys who also called his mother horrible names desides to set out on a campaign of revenge against the evil army and the bad bad general lord meany, and leaves some ambiguity of motivation, isn't that better? Isn't ambigueity what gm's across the globe use?

Now if toee had a good plot, good story, and good roleplaying is a different matter, but if it had roleplaying is not a question. The choices you made in the game had a huge impacts on the game. And the choices were numerous. There was character creation. And the outcome of all events was independant of my personal physical abilities.

Did toee give you nearly as many choices as playing in a p&p campaign? No, and no crpg will come close, but they can try. Was the story as good and flowing as it would have been in a p&p campaign? Probaly not. Was it as fun as it would have been in a p&p campaign? No idea. Was toee an rpg? Yes, no question. If you can tell me why it didn't have roleplaying maybe I couyld respoind with my experience with toee.
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Post Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:47 am
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Stranger In A Strange Land




Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia
   

Er...no, I'm not talking about story at all. I guess there may have been some some choices in Homlett (sp?) but the writing and get-everyone-married quests were so banal I may not have paid attention.

When I arrived at the Temple, there was some brief dialogue where I made a choice that let to a battle at the side entrance...thereafter every person/creature/whatever I came near rushed to attack. I proceeded through every level with virtually no dialogue -- because there was no choice -- until everyone was dead. I think there might have been a captive or two with a couple of dialogue lines certainly nothing that counts as "roleplaying" or even any choices for that matter.

As hack'n'slash as Diablo except with turn-based combat. One day I will get around to rolling an evil party but I tend to find those hard to play, so I haven't gotten around to it.

So...roleplaying?
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Post Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:16 am
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Roqua
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump
   

quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
Er...no, I'm not talking about story at all. I guess there may have been some some choices in Homlett (sp?) but the writing and get-everyone-married quests were so banal I may not have paid attention.

When I arrived at the Temple, there was some brief dialogue where I made a choice that let to a battle at the side entrance...thereafter every person/creature/whatever I came near rushed to attack. I proceeded through every level with virtually no dialogue -- because there was no choice -- until everyone was dead. I think there might have been a captive or two with a couple of dialogue lines certainly nothing that counts as "roleplaying" or even any choices for that matter.

As hack'n'slash as Diablo except with turn-based combat. One day I will get around to rolling an evil party but I tend to find those hard to play, so I haven't gotten around to it.

So...roleplaying?


There really was a lot of people to talk to in the temple. Seriuosly. But don't take my word, check a wlakthrough.

By the way, me and the old nazi hag went to our favorite restuarant here before we move and I had 4 Sheaf stouts. My first time drinking an Aussie beer besides Fosters. It goes down easy so I didn't think I was even a little drunk until I went to smoke. Good beer, tastes like coffee though.
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Post Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:20 am
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