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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
| Ekim's Gamer View: RTS: The New RPG |
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Friday's the day when Ekim throws in one of his editorials to spark a discussion about RPG related topics. I am quite sure this one will do just that again: <a href="http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=618" target)"_blank">RTS: The New RPG</a>. I get at least five mails a week asking why we cover games that are RTS and not considered to be a "real" RPG, so I am really glad that Ekim takes on this topic  . Here's an excerpt:
<br><blockquote><em>Thinking back I recall that the first time we ever saw RTS games mentioning RPG features came after Baldur’s Gate. The combat in BG was great, but clearly derived from RTS games. You could pause the action, issue commands on the fly, move your units to apply different strategies. Furthermore, some strategies worked in some circumstances while they utterly failed in others, so you had to think before moving your characters, and rushing them head-on into danger was generally a bad idea, unlike most other RPG game that came before it. The BG developers were visionary in designing the way that battles were fought in an RPG by looking at what was being done in other types of games to inspire their own concepts. But they never said that BG was an RPG/RTS hybrid game… No one ever did, in fact.</em></blockquote> |
Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:29 pm |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
Here we go again... defining a genre.
Confusion? sure it is too bad. But it's inevitable.
Developer? they don't want to confuse, or maybe they just don't care. But they do indeed want to make their game appeal to gamers as many as possible, across the genres.
One thing though, RPG purist would get pissed when a newbie drop by and declare that "Diablo 1 & 2 is greatest RPG i ever played!!!." |
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Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:56 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
Developer? they don't want to confuse, or maybe they just don't care. But they do indeed want to make their game appeal to gamers as many as possible, across the genres.
One clarification though: Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I don't blame developers about calling their game an RPG. Most of the time it's the publisher that does it. Publishers are in charge of the marketing and labeling of their games in most cases.
And of course it's all right to want to make a game that will appeal to the most people. But you don't call any white dog a dalmatian if you painted black dots on its back.
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
One thing though, RPG purist would get pissed when a newbie drop by and declare that "Diablo 1 & 2 is greatest RPG i ever played!!!."
I know how RPG "purists" can be very close-minded about their genre... I'm sometimes like that. If someone came to me and told me that Diablo 1&2 were the best RPGs they ever played, I'd simply pat them on the shoulder and tell them that it's great! But maybe they haven't played a whole lot of other RPGs... Or maybe they like Action games more than true, hardcore RPGs. Again, that's all fine, there's really no problem with that at all! If everyone can be honest with themselves for a second, they'll agree that Diablo is more akin to an action game than any other RPG.
It's about defining a genre, yes.
And maybe the reason we're so passionate about RPGs is because it's really the hardest genre to define of them all... We have to draw the line somewhere, we're just not really sure where though... EVen amongst purist we can't seem to agree sometimes. In the case of RTS games though, it's clear. An RTS can have RPG elements to them, but that doesn't make them RPGs at all.
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:09 pm |
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Lorgosin
Head Merchant
Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 69
Location: Sweden |
I'll have to agree with Ekim here. It has become fashion to say that a game is part RPG. Maybe because RPGs are considered a bit more sophisticated than your averege action game. I'm afraid that the term RPG is used to much and in the end it will loose it's original meaning. Especially since the things they say comes from RPGs aren't really what makes a game an RPG. It can rather be described as a system that helps the player roleplay by defining the limits of the character. If RPG means a game with stats, how would you describe Morrowind? And as for confusion it really is a problem. I've seen "real" RPGs getting very bad reviews because they didn't contain enough action. Many reviewers are actually expecting the next diablo clone when they play RPGs. Morrowind sucks as a diablo clone but it's one hell of an RPG. Bad press is never good and I think it's even worse when its for no reason but ignorance on behalf of the reviwer. Like Ekim said, if people come to expect Diablo when they hear RPG it's a very bad thing indeed. Let's face it, RPG-gaming is a relatively small market that thrives mostly on dedicated fans of the genre. If the publishers decided that it would be more profitable to use RPG as a term for Diablo-type games, they would. The developers would of course not stop making "real" RPGs but it would become a lot more confusing for us RPG purists. What's even worse than action gamers getting the wrong idea of RPGs is that people who might actually like "real" RPGs can be turned away by playng Diablo or Dungeon Siege and thinking that that's what RPGs are all about. But then I guess computer gaming in general is represented by Doom and GTA3 to the general public, so this is really quite a small issue. But to a real RPG fan it's still irritating. I would like to conclude by thanking Ekim for a great editorial about an interesting subject. |
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Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:18 pm |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
!!! i lost my post, %#@$ internet connection...
Anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
...I don't blame developers about calling their game an RPG. Most of the time it's the publisher that does it. Publishers are in charge of the marketing and labeling of their games in most cases.
My mistake. I meant publisher, not developer. However, while Publisher does indeed likely to paint an inccorect picture of particular game; we really can't discounting the developers and they probably giving pretty much the same amount of misleading information. I don't want to point up a particular developer, but from interviews, or Q&A session with developers, include games from other genre on a large gaming news portal, it's not difficult for you to find the hypes, the inaccurate depictions, and misleading statements about RPG/Action/RTS/Whatever elements in their soon to be release games. And i have bought myself games that are not really what the developer said.
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
And of course it's all right to want to make a game that will appeal to the most people. But you don't call any white dog a dalmatian if you painted black dots on its back.
Why not, misleading commercial announcement and advertisement are not only happening in game industry. Never underestimate the power of hype & advertiosement. What?, don't like a full blown capitalism?  
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
Diablo is more akin to an action game than any other RPG.
So in your conclusion, Diablo is Action game or RPG? Personally, there is not need for strict categorization of a games - even in academically discussion, or for academically purposes. I can accept Diablo series as a RPG, and of course, with considerable action element in it. But it's still RPG, or Action-RPG if you want.
And why we should be offended, annyoned, when a developer injecting a RPG with more action element? It's just another "flavor" of RPG. And Diablo sold over millions copies for that. However i can understand that RPG purist will get annoyed when "serious/real/teraditional RPG" become less and the market get flooded with Diablo clones, or worst still, a Diablo-wannabes that play like a crippled version of Diablo.
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
...We have to draw the line somewhere, we're just not really sure where though...... EVen amongst purist we can't seem to agree sometimes.
Maybe we Shouldn't and we can't - especially if we wanted a prefect, 100% clear and complete definition of RPG genre. The genre itself is something dynamic in which its depend on innovation of the genre and creativity of the developer.
We may as well draw a flexible line on what's RPG, and list out some main characteristics of RPG. This should be useful and practical general guides. If particular RTS-RPG like Warcraft III, or Action-Adventure-RPG like Freelancer is a good game, and many reader here at RPGdot demand the news about them, then why not?. |
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Sat Jun 14, 2003 10:22 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Does a TRUE RPG exist? If so, go ahead and define all its elements and give me its name!! No, I'm not being trite. I love this genre, but I can't define it. For me the perfect RPG was PS-T; it had everything I believe an RPG should have. Yet, I've met other RPG lovers who didn't like it!! Too slow, they say, too much reading, not enough action. IMO, Diablo isn't an RPG, never could be, and I wouldn't have it on my HD. DS was a lame excuse for one. Am I right or wrong? Does it matter? We will all never agree. That's both the strength and the weakness of the genre, and propbably, the bane of developers. We can't define what we mean and what we want. We think we know when we have it, and often we know when we don't. Keep up the great work Ekim.
_________________
If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:06 pm |
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vaticide
Put food in here
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 1122
Location: One step behind a toddler bent on destruction. |
It can go the other way too, speaking of Dungeon Siege, it was billed as a RPG with RTS elements. As far as I could tell, the RTS elements were that you had a party. Maybe it is just me but this didn't seem to ground-breaking or new for a RPG, nor did it really seem anything like a RTS. I'm guessing they just billed it that way to build off of Chris Taylor's reputation from Total Annihilation and pull customers who loved that game.
-vaticide |
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Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:18 pm |
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Parcival
Rightful Heir To The Throne
Joined: 27 Jul 2002
Posts: 153
Location: The Netherlands |
quote:
Originally posted by corwin
Does a TRUE RPG exist? If so, go ahead and define all its elements and give me its name!! No, I'm not being trite. I love this genre, but I can't define it. (...)
I do agree on this point. I think RPG is a Hybrid genre by nature. You wont be able to make a rpg without pouting elements in it of an action game, or an adeventure game or a rts game. Or all of them.
Sometimes i dream of a game that will interview me before it installs. Party of 1st person? 3d or isometric? Endeless dialogue trees or fixed story line? Adventure elemeten; rate 1 to 10. RTS, rate 1 to 10.
Such a game would rate very high for replayability
Yours
parcival |
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Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:02 pm |
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Lorgosin
Head Merchant
Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 69
Location: Sweden |
I think a true RPG is a game is a game where you at least to some extent have control over your goals and actions. Not necessarily total control mind you, but enough to let you feel that you as a player can impact the experience you get from a game. Everything else is only a suppurting structure that provides the rules of the gameworld as I see it. Personally I think a slower pace makes getting into your role easier (plus I like thinking), but what disqualifies Diablo from being an RPG for me is the fact that you don't get a say in your characters actions besides what monster to kill first. As I see it, no game where you are just herded along can be an RPG. I agree that it's hard to define what an RPG is but the above is my attempt to a simple definition. |
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Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:56 am |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
However, while Publisher does indeed likely to paint an inccorect picture of particular game; we really can't discounting the developers and they probably giving pretty much the same amount of misleading information.
True! Point taken 
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
So in your conclusion, Diablo is Action game or RPG? Personally, there is not need for strict categorization of a games - even in academically discussion, or for academically purposes. I can accept Diablo series as a RPG, and of course, with considerable action element in it. But it's still RPG, or Action-RPG if you want.
Diablo to me is an Action/Adventure game, if I must classify it in a hybrid type of genre. No, I don't really think that we need to make strict categorizations of games, but I'd like to see correct ones. I just never saw what everyone else saw as "RPG" in games like Diablo. And in the case of Warcraft it's clearly an RTS, not an RTS/RPG... There'S no hybrid anything here. Borrowing elements from other genre is fine, but it doesn't make a game something else. Again I'll take my Baldur's Gate example: When the developers went for a more "strategic" combat style for their game, they didn't decide to classify it as an RPG/RTS, did they?
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
And why we should be offended, annyoned, when a developer injecting a RPG with more action element? It's just another "flavor" of RPG.
No, we shouldn't be offended. But there is no "little" action in Diablo. There's only action mixed with a little adventure. I'd say (again) that Diablo was an Action game with some RPG elements. And that's not saying the game was bad, or shouldn't have sold.
quote:
Originally posted by corwin
Does a TRUE RPG exist? If so, go ahead and define all its elements and give me its name!! No, I'm not being trite. I love this genre, but I can't define it.
I can't define it either  Actually anyone that think that can define what an RPG is is being naive, because the definition changes for each of us. I've seen countless "What defines an RPG" threads here in the forums and no one could ever agree on anything but a few minor points.
But the fact is that you can pretty much define every other genre though. And that makes it very clear on what other games are, or aren't. When you see an RTS game, there's no doubt in your mind that it is one, unless someone tries to make you believe that it's something else. And that's when some people get confused. I'm not talking about those that are real RPG purists, or hardcore fans of the genre who get confused. I'm talking about the fans of other genres that are fooled into thinking that they like "hardcore" RPGs because they enjoyed a game that isn't one at all...
By "hardcore" RPGs I mean games the like of Planescape: Torment, Morrowind, NWN, BG1 & 2, and others like that which do not generally apeal to the Diablo generation... To me, that's what defines a "purist" RPGer: the ability to enjoy Hardcore RPG games, but also the ability to enjoy games that are not RPGs for what they really are. I enjoyed Diablo very much when I played it, but I never thought that it was an RPG. Same goes for Dungeon Seige, and Warcraft 3. But when we come out and say that those games aren't RPGs, we get flamed
I can't define what an RPG is because it's true that it is the most hybrid-like genre out there. But I can definately tell what isn't an RPG though.
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:24 pm |
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