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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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If I could only point to one thing it would be THE PRINTING PRESS. Having a society where the average man in as educated as the elite scholars in every other society is bound to give you a huge advantage in all walks of life.
Other factors make a difference as well, naval technology, the econonmic structure, military etc.
I think the Muslim countries' resistance to outside ideas caused them to fall from dominance, and I think it is hurting them still.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:07 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
@Darrius, the printing press was first invented around 1200 BC in crete. There is a clay wheel accouting for royal stockpiles of (wheat?) that had obviously been made using cut blocks to make the symbols. So what happened? Why did it not catch on?
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:24 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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Did they have paper and ink and an alphabet that made printing books possible? If their alphabet had 32,000 characters in it then it would not have been feasible to use a printing press to create books on a large scale.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:22 am |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
Ach. You have me there. I don't remember! I do recall that Jarod Diamond's conclusion was that it was an idea before it's time. At that time the only literate were essentially accountants, there were no dramatists that could write so it did not cross their minds (assuming they existed) to write their plays down.
His point was, any invention in a vacuum is useless. The culture has to be ready for the invention. So I would contend that the creation of the printing press would've useless with out the Greek idea of recording literature for the future. In addition, it needed a reason to circulate that literature, the Protestant (sp?) Reformation presented just such a need. They happened pretty much at once. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. The printing press needed an other element to succede - a large number of literate people. In the case of Europe that was supplied by the 'middle class' merchants who needed to read and write to carry on business.
With out a literate population, a need to communicate identical information to a large number of them, and an alphabet the printing press fizzles. So what is more important, the printing press or the forces that created that literate middle or merchantile class?
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:49 pm |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
Lintra, really interesting discussion. I think much of Europe's dominance also came from the fact the many states of Europe competed with each other in so many different ways. Militarily, economically, politically, etc. These all created strong needs for improvement to maintain power. Also, like Jared Diamond's book states, Europe has been a great meeting place for many different cultures, and thus ideas. It's received influences from the Middle East, Africa, Asia, and later when adventurers and explorers set out, with the Far East, the Americas, etc.
What surprises me is why other cultures and countries like China, Korea, Japan, or Thailand never went global either. China at one point seemed to be ready to go global. It had a prospering culture, mass printing and literacy (wood block printing of novels became popular during the Ming dynasty), rising arts, etc. They sent out six large trading and exploration fleets from 1405-1430. Yet the Ming dynasty for some reason turned inward. And the country became kind of frozen in time.
Even though Korea was situated between three great powers (Russia, China, and Japan), they never seemed to develop much military or economic drive (it's different now), and were occupied by China and Japan at various times in their history. In the late 1500s, Korea had an excellent navy which destroyed the pitiful Japanese navy put together by Hideyoshi. But their military power on land was rather dismal.
Japan had great military power, yet their military advances didn't come quickly until the Portuguese and Spanish traders arrived. Japan never had much of a navy tradition. And one would think their isolation would prompt the people and culture outward, but it didn't. Japanese were quite happy to remain in Japan.
Thailand formed an empire in southeast Asia during the 1600s-1700s, IIRC, conquering Cambodia, Laos, and parts of Malaysia, yet even with lots of people, great land, literacy, and culture, they did not reach out, and Thailand was eventually forced to shrink. I think some of it has to do with their distaste for merchants, who were mostly ethnic Chinese, and the severe restrictions and punishments laid upon them.
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Give me the shadows, shield me from the light, and I shall let nothing pass in the darkness of the night. |
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Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:07 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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I agree with you on the basic premise. The literal rule so to speak is correct. I do think that the actual threshold for "being ready" is lower than what you make it out to be. When I say they printing press, I mean all input necessary for the mass production of books. That means they must know how to mass produce paper and ink, have a mechanism for binding the paper together, and have an alphabet that is make using a printing press manageable, and of course a printing press. Any other technology, no matter how alien, that could record and mass produce ideas, preserve them for posterity, and disseminate them to the masses would be suitable. It takes more than a wink and nod to develop all that when you have never seen it before.
That being said, to do this would only require sophistication on the most basic levels. Namely, they need a stable government, and a clergy. If they have a bonifide teacher class, then they are all the way there. All societies have some form of religion. Any society would have a stake in writing their version of the "bible." Any society would have a stake in teaching people to read so that they can follow laws better. Any society would have a stake in teaching people to read so that they carry out military procedures better. There is always a merchant class on some rudimentary level that could benefit as well.
Reading is such a versatile and powerful tool, that less than one percent of the people could know how at the beginning and that 1% would be driven by the profit motive to teach others how to read, if only to make more skilled servants.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:24 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by Darrius Cole
Any society would have a stake in teaching people to read so that they can follow laws better. Any society would have a stake in teaching people to read so that they carry out military procedures better. There is always a merchant class on some rudimentary level that could benefit as well.
I dunno about that. Many societies have been successful w/o being massively literate, but more importantly, literacy encourages thought ... which is very dangerous to a repressive/totalitarian set up.
If maintainance of technology weren't an issue, take away literacy, so that the only information they get is through the TV, and the US becomes the most easily manipulated country in the history of civilization (they might already be *ugh*). But the existance (diminishing though it might be) of literacy allows alternative forms of communication. Through the internet, or papers alternative views (no matter *how* nutty) have a forum for expression.
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:19 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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You make a good point but were are talking about the sucess of a society versus a society that is not nearly as literate.
Literacy is relative. We may be 90% literate in the U.S. now. If we were to encounter the planet Vulcan where they have already discovered warp drive, transporters, and tri-quarters, we would all be illiterate relative to the technology that dominates. In 30 years the U.S. would look just like the planet Vulcan.
So when a European culture encountered a culture with lessor technology they dominated. It was easy for them to force their will on the resident culture and it was hard for the resident culture to get them out.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:06 pm |
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