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tancred
Village Dweller
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 2
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| non-mouse driven conversation in games |
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Can anyone help. I'm getting back into CPRGs after a gap of literally years and years. A major disappointment to me is who dialogue is handled in contemporary games.
Mouse driven conversation trees effectively become (for me) tedious multiple choice exercises where every option is clicked through until all are exhausted.
I far preferred systems such as used in ultima 4 where you entered questions from the keyboard. the parser was very crude (it was a long time ago) but nonetheless I found this much better - you really had to watch what people said to gain clues as to what might be worth asking about. On the other hand you could chance your arm and ask about something and get lucky - without waiting for a game event to add an option to a given characters clickable conversation topics as you often get today.
am i the only one who preferred this - i guess i'm in a minority or they'd still be doing it that way. or does anyone know of any contemporary (or even currently) available single player CPRGs where conversation is implemented this way - ie not mouse driven?
thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer... |
Thu Jul 18, 2002 11:00 pm |
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Rawis
Gorthaur
Joined: 01 Apr 2002
Posts: 1861
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I don't think any new games uses that system anymore. Becouse, i think it would be too advanced and hard to play. |
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Thu Jul 18, 2002 11:20 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Ohhh... think of Zork... now that was a really good parser. But I agree, nowadays they put so much effort and resources in the graphical section that they don't care to implement parsers anymore.
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Jaz |
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Thu Jul 18, 2002 11:26 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Wiz8 has a rudimentary parser. Conversation topics are added to a list as you converse with more and more NPCs, but you can, at any time, type in anything you want and get some kind of response. The responses for various obscenities can be rather funny...
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Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:28 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Yes, Wizardry 8 is the only current game I can think of that allows you to do that.
Heaven forbid we should have to think in an RPG nowadays. 
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Fri Jul 19, 2002 2:30 am |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
Fallout 1/2 to a degree let you ask your own questions.
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Fri Jul 19, 2002 2:51 am |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
I too like the parser system. Val is right, the mouse-clicking system doesn't require nearly as much thought. From a programming point of view, the parser is probably easier to implement, too. The only advantages I see to the point-click system is that spelling and synonyms don't matter, which unfortunately the masses probably want.
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Fri Jul 19, 2002 4:29 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
I quite like the old parsers too (Ahh Zork...), although it was sometimes frustrating getting the phrasing right. Remember being stuck for hours only to find the correct phrase was only slightly different from everything you'd tried?
I think most reviewers would crucify a parser as too hard or only for "old school" fans - too risky for most developers to take the chance on. |
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Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:26 am |
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Xanaki
Ghost of Asheron
Joined: 07 May 2002
Posts: 398
Location: Helsinki, Finland |
I've been missing this too in single player games. Non mouse-driven chat interface would be nice for a while. But I fear that the player base is too spoiled at the moment...
I would gladly type my phrases in a game if the parser is atleast decent.
Well, thats why I play MMORPGs It fully has a NON-MOUSE-DRIVEN chat interface, you must type everything you want to say to your fellow (human players).
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Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:38 am |
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Xanaki
Ghost of Asheron
Joined: 07 May 2002
Posts: 398
Location: Helsinki, Finland |
Oh, btw, to reply my MMORPG claim. It almost is true, except for Phantasy Star Online. I think it has a chat interface where you select icons and the icons mean something... universal chat language that is supposed to work for all real life languages because the icons mean the same thing across the worlds..
Well, anyhow, I'm not sure if  Phantasy Star Online  really gategorizes as a MMORPG.
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Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:41 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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| Re: non-mouse driven conversation in games |
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quote:
Originally posted by tancred
Mouse driven conversation trees effectively become (for me) tedious multiple choice exercises where every option is clicked through until all are exhausted.
I far preferred systems such as used in ultima 4 where you entered questions from the keyboard. the parser was very crude (it was a long time ago) but nonetheless I found this much better - you really had to watch what people said to gain clues as to what might be worth asking about. On the other hand you could chance your arm and ask about something and get lucky - without waiting for a game event to add an option to a given characters clickable conversation topics as you often get today.
am i the only one who preferred this - i guess i'm in a minority or they'd still be doing it that way. or does anyone know of any contemporary (or even currently) available single player CPRGs where conversation is implemented this way - ie not mouse driven?
thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer...
Well I think Wizardry 8 is the only "new" game to be released that even comes close to what you're looking for, as it has a word based entry system which stores some of the key words you come across, but also lets you type in some words. I've actually found that a lot of the times, a key word won't show up unless you actually type it in (and store it). You get to ask about the key word and "Where is" the key word.
In comparison to the BG series type of dialogue trees, I guess this system forces you to think more about who might know about what, which adds a layer of complexity (a good thing IMO). However, the interactions tend to be crude, and clever witty repartee is of course left out (although one could make the case that in BG series, you're not actually doing the reparteeing, and that you're merely clicking, which is a valid point, although it depends on how much one enjoys the reading of said repartee )
And about a full-fledge parser system; my experience with those has been painful. I would dread to have one in my game unless it was excellent...
- Wind |
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Fri Jul 19, 2002 12:04 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
I agree in that I hate the current mouse driven systems. However, a good parser is VERY difficult to employ. Not only is the parser itself extremely complex (remember to be good it is essentially a full language system), but implementation of it into a game requires many, many options to be covered by the designers. The current system with the predefined, limited questions and responses is MUCH easier to implement in a game. With that said, I do wish we would go back to the parser type. However, another problem with the parser type is that it requires MUCH more effort on the part of the player - and as others have noted, many if not most players are becoming extremely lazy.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Fri Jul 19, 2002 12:36 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
The use of a parser also requires good spelling on the part of the player, and extensive note taking on scrap paper.
While I like the illusion of freedom a parser imparts and the fact it forces more critical thinking, the work required to program and use it is high. I no longer have to draw detailed maps when I play since most games now come with an automap feature that can be annotated ... this is a great time saver and mess reducer. Using a mouse driven discussion tree is similar. The parser does not allow you any options you didn't have before (if properly scripted) but does force you to keep pages and pages of notes. Of course it also requires you to think about which notes to use with whom.
How many of you can recall looking for the notes you took on the city of X but can't find them ... you where sure they were on the back of the map! After 25 minutes of frantic searching and digging you find the envelope you quickly scribbled notes on at 2 AM 'cuz you were too tired to get a piece of paper. While playing NWN I have only a few scraps of paper on my desk - all related to other things. When playing Might and Magic 6 my desk was buried in scraps of notes and maps - and that was with a mouse driven conversation system!!
A good journal function would eliminate a large chunk of the paper work, but the more efficient the journal, the less critical thinking involved. In fact, a 100% efficient journal looks just like ... can you guess, do you see this one coming? ... yep, it looks just like the mouse driven conversation system. Hmmmm.
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Fri Jul 19, 2002 2:02 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
You may be interested in the last project the late great author, Douglas Adams, was involved. An adventure computer game. Something about Titanic (and unfortunately it came out at around the time of the movie, which was coincidental, but the crossreference was just too strong  ). Starship Titanic, or something like that. It was supposed to have a full text interface with a "full english parser."
I put it in quotes, because the real parser technology of what you're talking about is, in my best educated guesstimate, 7 to 10 years away. First you need to have full synonymy and it has to become an established and well polished technology before you can move on to context distinction. You need to know that canine and dog are the same basic thing. You need to know that animal hospital will cure dogs and cats and not just animals. Current language parsers cannot do that. After the synonymy, you can try and explain to the computer how and why "to eat a piece of cake" and "to eat is a piece of cake" are two completely different things. The problem is, even if someone comes up with this technology today, people will not understand it. It will not be accepted and recognized for its full potential. I know this because I worked on this very project for about a year and a half. We had a barely working prototype and when we woudl show it to people, their reaction was just unbeliavable. But I don't wanna go into that... makes me to furious...
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Fri Jul 19, 2002 3:12 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
BTW, if you wish to investigate the current state of language parsers as applied to games, you might check out the current game engines for text only games (like the old Zork). There are several - some being updated recently. At least a couple I have tried have quite complex language systems.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Fri Jul 19, 2002 3:35 pm |
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