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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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| Things RPG devs should try to do ... |
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1. Create a story that doesn't involve saving the world. Saving the world is so played out it isn't even funny (or hardly fun) anymore.
2. Make sure your NPC's have purpose other than serving the PC.
3. Make your monsters and enemies and NPC's smarter and fight with better tactics rather than just give them more hit points and numbers.
4. Give the players more ways to customize their PC. The more control we have over the way our character looks the better.
5. Give us non-linear gameplay but please make sure your game presents challenge and excitement throughout all reasonable levels of character advancement. (For example Morrowind would have been 100 times cooler if it featured challenges in the OUT OF THE BOX GAME that would challenge characters up to lvl 50 at least, I personally would have designed challenges for characters of up to lvl 70 and it certainly wouldn't be that hard to do so.)
6. In no way should you limit who or what our PC's can attack. If we want to try and kill the benevolent king, please let us. Make sure their are consequences for our actions.
... please continue with your wants for RPG's and feel free to flame my ideas  |
Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:18 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
| Re: Things RPG devs should try to do ... |
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quote:
Originally posted by Kabduhl
6. In no way should you limit who or what our PC's can attack. If we want to try and kill the benevolent king, please let us. Make sure their are consequences for our actions.
Even the consequence of not being able to complete the game and not realizing it until close to the end? I don't think developers really want to recieve that much hate-mail. 
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Mon Feb 03, 2003 6:05 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
That's not a bad list, Kabduhl.
I'll just make a quick (personal) comment on non-linearity. This is one of the most requested features but for my own personal taste it needs to be balanced against story requirements. I like non-linearity but as I look back at my favourite RPGs, the ones with the most involving stories are my favourites. Since stories are linear by nature, the right balance needs to be struck between open gameplay and maintaining focus on the story.
The ability to kill anything and everything is not too high on my list. I agree there should be as much freedom as possible and consequences of players actions should be measured, but I think Val has a good point here. |
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Mon Feb 03, 2003 7:20 am |
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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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Nah I think Morrowind was too generous giving the little message away ... the threads of prophecy have been severed blah blah ... like you would ever know lol. I say let people use their brains when playing and if they kill someone they shouldn't have killed, then too bad so sad. I would however advise a better journal system and one with a section called IMPORTANT PEOPLE and auto note people of signifigance so really the only person that can be blamed is the homocidal PC. |
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Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:18 am |
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Xanaki
Ghost of Asheron
Joined: 07 May 2002
Posts: 398
Location: Helsinki, Finland |
quote:
1. Create a story that doesn't involve saving the world. Saving the world is so played out it isn't even funny (or hardly fun) anymore.
I have been thinking about this for some time. Has there been any RPG games where you actually have to *DESTROY* the world. Atleast none comes into my mind at the moment.
Would be nice to play complete Anti-hero some day 
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Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:09 pm |
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XeroX
The MasterCopy
Joined: 13 Dec 2001
Posts: 7125
Location: The Netherlands |
A goal of destroying the world would be strange. Something like i won, everybody is dead.
Maybe a goal where you begin low but you can adventualy grow stronger, gather more support and then overtrow the current leader.
The goal then would be the become the ruler of the world. The way how to do it is free, by being nice or by killing everyone that is against you.
That would be nice
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Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:21 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
To sort of follow up on Dhruin's comment-
Non-linearity it a wonderful thing, but there are pitfalls to it. Morrowind is probably the most non-linear game out there right now. When I play it, I find that I gradually lose interest. You're tossed in the middle of the world and can do anything you want. Problem is, there's no reason to do anything either. Becoming a guildmaster doesn't change your character's abilities any differently than spending months in the "outback" killing cliff racers. Becoming a guildmaster doesn't change the world or the people in it. I suppose there are people that will climb a mountain simply because it's there, but I prefer a pile of gold and all the world singing my praises.
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:56 pm |
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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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to dtweomer:
that isn't a fualt of non-linearity that is a fault of bethesda not going the full 100% in their game. they should have added many scripted sequences all over the place for becoming head of a guild or a house. for example (and this is just off the top of my head) here's a few sequences i would have thrown in for becoming head of mages guild:
1. Several outcast mages return asking to be reunited with the mages guild due to the new leadership.
2. Some of the current mages conspire to kill you and take your leadership away. They hold a special banquet for you in Vivec but send in droves of assassins to eliminate you and those friendly to you in the middle of the banquet.
3. A wandering battle mage kidnaps townspeople from Balmora and Ald Ruhn (people friendly to the mages guild) and says the only way to free them is to defeat him in combat.
4. Any time you go anywhere near Telvanni land hit squads are sent out after you.
5. The Telvanni thinking the mages guild will be temporarily weakened by having a new leader begin to send attack squads against the various outlying mages guilds.
6. People come to you occasionally for advice and input on everything from farming to alchemy. These little episodes could be more just for story and character interaction.
** These are just a few of the things I would have done. I think design wise I would have made 5 - 10 instances for each house and guild for things to happen after you become the leader. These things would be relatively easy to script and you could trigger them based on time intervals and entering a mages guild so they could even feel randomized depending upon which mages guild you entered. Hell you could have each 'episode' run off a switch statement and truly randomize them so that if you replayed and were mages guild leader again you would get the same 'episodes' but in different order. |
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Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:21 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
All those would be fun, but that's really just an extension of the existing story. Your quests (very creative, BTW) aren't any different "design-wise" from ones already in the game, although far more interesting and keyed to neglected higher level characters. Having quests unavailable until certain criteria are met is already in MW (you have to be 4th rank before the Balmora mage guy will give you quests, for example).
I don't think I was completely clear about my gripe. (I should mention that I thought MW was an excellent game, but it didn't "take over my life" like other games have) My problem may be a simple case of being stuck in a certain mentality- do quest, get XP, improve character, repeat. When I do a quest, I want it to give me something I can't get any other way. Whether it's XP, or a "unique" item, or a key, or a pile of gold (not usually a good reward in the long run), I want more from a quest than simply unlocking the next quest or skill gains that I could have gotten without doing the quest. Simply put, motivation. In MW, the world didn't change if I completed a quest and my character didn't change if I completed a quest. Why bother with a quest that makes you run half way across the island when you can achieve the same results raiding tombs around Balmora?
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:44 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
I agree with most everything that has already been said, so I won't repeat it. One of the things I have enjoyed in games lately, has been the humour. I'll never forget the two skeletons in DD arguing about how and why they could talk and move. Everyone usually loves a good laugh and in RPG's, they can really enhance the experience. So dev's, keep adding the humour, I love it.
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Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:30 pm |
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cheatboy00
Village Dweller
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 7
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I'm creating a rpg... its been in the planing for months now and I figure it's time to start some coding... and whats kinda amusing is that #6 is excatly what I was planing on adding.. plus everything else on the list... I hope this game to be great... but only you guys can decide that... I'm not totally programing the game myself or with c++ or something. I'm using 2 rpg maker engines. Rpgmaker2k just for the demo, then I'll try out Sphere... and see whats that like...
the story is totally original. I wrote it... I'm getting friends to help me with graphic desgins.. etc.. i'll give more info later....
but on the topic of humour, I'm not that good at it hopefully some of my friends can help me out in that area... but over all any suggestion for me to build into it please e-mail me..
cheatboy00@yahoo.com |
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Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:07 am |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
| Re: Things RPG devs should try to do ... |
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quote:
Originally posted by Kabduhl
1. Create a story that doesn't involve saving the world. Saving the world is so played out it isn't even funny (or hardly fun) anymore.
2. Make sure your NPC's have purpose other than serving the PC.
3. Make your monsters and enemies and NPC's smarter and fight with better tactics rather than just give them more hit points and numbers.
4. Give the players more ways to customize their PC. The more control we have over the way our character looks the better.
5. Give us non-linear gameplay but please make sure your game presents challenge and excitement throughout all reasonable levels of character advancement. (For example Morrowind would have been 100 times cooler if it featured challenges in the OUT OF THE BOX GAME that would challenge characters up to lvl 50 at least, I personally would have designed challenges for characters of up to lvl 70 and it certainly wouldn't be that hard to do so.)
6. In no way should you limit who or what our PC's can attack. If we want to try and kill the benevolent king, please let us. Make sure their are consequences for our actions.
... please continue with your wants for RPG's and feel free to flame my ideas
1. Agreed. Save the world plots are done because they're easy. But I think you'll agree that character stories within that plot typically have more of an impact on us. The more significant stuff is closer to home. (Example would be Planescape: Torment.)
3. Scripting is usually one of the last things game developers think about. To write believable AI, someone needs to spend a lot of time on it. Most companies are more concerned with getting things like the engine, 3D graphics and effects, etc. all programmed in, then they do the scripting, but more as an afterthought.
5. That's one of my gripes with Morrowind. As much as I love the game, I know by level 20ish, I'll be king of the hill. Not good. I liked how Fallout and Fallout 2 handled it. Even though you could get really powerful, there were always enemies that could kill you. Power progression was linear and well controlled. One hero taking on six or seven Enclave patrol members is mighty hard.
6. Sort of. I don't usually kill NPCs except to test things or work out frustrations. And I don't take pleasure in leaving said NPCs dead. Instead, I would say leave most NPCs killable, and for those who are important to the story, make sure they have logical, in-game ways of persuading the player to think otherwise. For example, you talk about the benevolent king. If we want to kill him, that's fine. But it should be just as fine if he has ten high level guards in his throne room, and dozens more waiting outside. If you kill him directly, your own destruction is guaranteed as well, unless you can do it through other, more subtle means (which opens up possibilities for more quests--i.e., the thief guild wants the king removed, because he's cramping their style).
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Give me the shadows, shield me from the light, and I shall let nothing pass in the darkness of the night. |
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Fri Feb 07, 2003 4:39 am |
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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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| Re: Things RPG devs should try to do ... |
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quote:
Originally posted by Namirrha
quote:
Originally posted by Kabduhl
1. Create a story that doesn't involve saving the world. Saving the world is so played out it isn't even funny (or hardly fun) anymore.
2. Make sure your NPC's have purpose other than serving the PC.
3. Make your monsters and enemies and NPC's smarter and fight with better tactics rather than just give them more hit points and numbers.
4. Give the players more ways to customize their PC. The more control we have over the way our character looks the better.
5. Give us non-linear gameplay but please make sure your game presents challenge and excitement throughout all reasonable levels of character advancement. (For example Morrowind would have been 100 times cooler if it featured challenges in the OUT OF THE BOX GAME that would challenge characters up to lvl 50 at least, I personally would have designed challenges for characters of up to lvl 70 and it certainly wouldn't be that hard to do so.)
6. In no way should you limit who or what our PC's can attack. If we want to try and kill the benevolent king, please let us. Make sure their are consequences for our actions.
... please continue with your wants for RPG's and feel free to flame my ideas
1. Agreed. Save the world plots are done because they're easy. But I think you'll agree that character stories within that plot typically have more of an impact on us. The more significant stuff is closer to home. (Example would be Planescape: Torment.)
3. Scripting is usually one of the last things game developers think about. To write believable AI, someone needs to spend a lot of time on it. Most companies are more concerned with getting things like the engine, 3D graphics and effects, etc. all programmed in, then they do the scripting, but more as an afterthought.
5. That's one of my gripes with Morrowind. As much as I love the game, I know by level 20ish, I'll be king of the hill. Not good. I liked how Fallout and Fallout 2 handled it. Even though you could get really powerful, there were always enemies that could kill you. Power progression was linear and well controlled. One hero taking on six or seven Enclave patrol members is mighty hard.
6. Sort of. I don't usually kill NPCs except to test things or work out frustrations. And I don't take pleasure in leaving said NPCs dead. Instead, I would say leave most NPCs killable, and for those who are important to the story, make sure they have logical, in-game ways of persuading the player to think otherwise. For example, you talk about the benevolent king. If we want to kill him, that's fine. But it should be just as fine if he has ten high level guards in his throne room, and dozens more waiting outside. If you kill him directly, your own destruction is guaranteed as well, unless you can do it through other, more subtle means (which opens up possibilities for more quests--i.e., the thief guild wants the king removed, because he's cramping their style).
Yeah I like all your ideas, especially number 6. I didn't mean make it easy, just don't have it be completely outside the scope of the game to kill a character. |
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Fri Feb 07, 2003 6:43 am |
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Maggot
Magister of the Light
Joined: 17 Jul 2001
Posts: 392
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland |
I think those are very good points.
1. Do you want to done down the significance of the player? There are a few excellent examples of this. The ending of Monkey Island 2, for instance.
Or do you mean a specific goal having to do with the main character, something similar to Planescape: Torment? Revenge perhaps?
Or do you mean optional retirement, similar to Pirates! ?
Or do you just mean a game without end, similar to MMORPG's, except that you never really finish the game successfully?
3. This is a good point. However, AI is very difficult to do well, and the best AI tends to be repetitive and really stupid. It has to do with the number of options, I think, since most CRPGs tend to have more options than chess.
4. I'm not sure whether this is a good point? It makes a strong story nearly impossible, unless the character comes in as an outsider to SAVE THE WORLD?
5. Non-linear gameplay really leads to hack and slash. Stories have to be linear. Baldurs Gate 2 seemed pretty non-linear in some chapters, but you were just advancing x story paths linearly. It is very hard for a computer program to come up with an interesting twist in the tale, if the player spends all his time killing vermin on his ranch.
6. Again, we come to story. It's hard to write a story that takes into account possible omnicide by the character. (Fallout's an example, though)
What you seem to be saying is that most games tend to be overly heroic, the main character seems to be the focus of everyone's attention, and what the player wants to do is not taken fully into account. I agree with you on some points - for single player games, at least. MMORPG's for instance really have to balance things better - there can not be 1000 overlords of the realm running around.
I look forward to Project Ego, I hope that'll look cool.
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Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:16 pm |
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