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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
Hey Michael, and everyone else, are you still alive? I think this topic has rested long enough, so let's revive it!
I'm going to reread the last few pages and after that hope to go on tuning. Then, for a start, we could test Version 0.6 of Michael's system, which I think was the last one, on a few more games.
Any volunteers? 
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“Through the sounds of falling rain, through the clouds of bitter times
I see the pure grace of your smile, in dreams of the warmth in your eyes” - Tim North |
Wed Jan 01, 2003 8:59 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
Much work in real life, but still alive - I could test version 0.6 on old games or new ones (Gothic 2, Nolf2, Mafia,... ). Any suggestions ?
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Wed Jan 01, 2003 9:44 pm |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
Hi HiddenX!
New games or old games, you choose, but preferably games that are well-known so that others can comment on your ratings. E.g. just try the games you listed (although I personally have only played Gothic 2 from that list). The more the better!
And remember to write down cases where you have difficulties rating certain categories, as those are the most intersting.
.~.~.~.
Some comments on one of Michael's previous posts:
~"Isometric" or "Bird" view Diablo or Darkstone, it's the same feeling for me eventhough there should be some geometric differences. I have no preferences in what we call the angled topdown view, but I'm not sure we need 2 so close definitions, as it only creates confusion like it do now!~
Ok. Then let's scratch ISO altogether to avoid further misunderstandings, and use only BIRD for every perspective where you see your characters from "above", like in Divinity, NWN, Diablo, Dungeon Siege, Darkstone and so on.
~ Fleshed out dialogues => Many NPC's must have multiple topics/stories available, and many NPC's should have more (hidden) topics/stories which are triggered when you write/choose the correct sentence/word.~
I'm fine with that. Out of curiosity, how would one rate Gothic 1 or 2 in the NPC category? I guess it would still fail this revised criterion, right? That would be ok of course..
~Regarding the last requirement in Gameworld:
~ -Day & night cycles, and different weather conditions and /or different seasons. ~ Maybe we should just add, that it must have some influence on the gameplay, and not only visual effects!?~
Yes, good idea.
_________________
“Through the sounds of falling rain, through the clouds of bitter times
I see the pure grace of your smile, in dreams of the warmth in your eyes” - Tim North |
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Wed Jan 01, 2003 9:57 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by Arhu
Hi HiddenX!
New games or old games, you choose, but preferably games that are well-known so that others can comment on your ratings. E.g. just try the games you listed (although I personally have only played Gothic 2 from that list). The more the better!
And remember to write down cases where you have difficulties rating certain categories, as those are the most intersting.
.~.~.~.
Some comments on one of Michael's previous posts:
~"Isometric" or "Bird" view Diablo or Darkstone, it's the same feeling for me eventhough there should be some geometric differences. I have no preferences in what we call the angled topdown view, but I'm not sure we need 2 so close definitions, as it only creates confusion like it do now!~
Ok. Then let's scratch ISO altogether to avoid further misunderstandings, and use only BIRD for every perspective where you see your characters from "above", like in Divinity, NWN, Diablo, Dungeon Siege, Darkstone and so on.
~ Fleshed out dialogues => Many NPC's must have multiple topics/stories available, and many NPC's should have more (hidden) topics/stories which are triggered when you write/choose the correct sentence/word.~
I'm fine with that. Out of curiosity, how would one rate Gothic 1 or 2 in the NPC category? I guess it would still fail this revised criterion, right? That would be ok of course..
~Regarding the last requirement in Gameworld:
~ -Day & night cycles, and different weather conditions and /or different seasons. ~ Maybe we should just add, that it must have some influence on the gameplay, and not only visual effects!?~
Yes, good idea.
Hi Arhu. I see You brought this topic back upfront, well I guess we could do another round on this topic
- Agree on the "Bird" perspective only
- Regarding triggering (hidden) NPC dialogues, we should add:
Many NPC's must have multiple topics/stories available, and many NPC's should have more (hidden) topics/stories which are triggered when you write/choose the correct sentence/word/ACTION meaning according to your deeds the NPC will have new topics ready. That would also fairly cover more games including Gothic 1 & 2!
Hidden X: Testing the system on ANY game with at least a touch of RPG elements could be interesting in refining the system! A goal for the system could be that a person making a test on a game he really hate against a person making a test on the same game that he/she really like, and still they should come up with almost the same score for the game. I know some people don't want to se the flaws by their best game, and other don't want to see anything good in another game. But by making this system with detailed explanations for each category, facts should be the only argument valuable to determine the score, and not personal preferences! (I hope?! )[/i]
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Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:06 am |
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Applebrown
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Canada |
I feel horribly uninformed of the thread (because it's so long and because there are many things I'm doing I haven't gone through it all), but someone on USENET mentioned it and I read about the version .6 of your RPG rating system. It's very intriguing so here's a few comments.
I've been a gamer virtually my whole life (30+ years), and categorizing something like RPG's into a universal rating system is a neat idea to me. However, I think, even giving it a lot of thought, this may be harder than you think. And I suspect that by the size of the thread many people agree... not at all that it can't be done, because a system certainly can be laid out that fits. It's just that it will be difficult and not easily attainable without some serious consideration.
The main obstacle with doing something like this is that the term "RPG" cannot be clearly agreed upon by a majority of people. An aside first... If any of this has been said before, I apologize, but I think nevertheless there is some importance here.
I'll only touch on one topic. It's the subjective topic. No matter how complicated the review system, and yours is about the most complicated (but easy to understand) I've come across (cheers to that!)... it's going to have subjectivity with every review, making it at least on those terms, equal to almost any non-complex review you might read elsewhere.
On the very positive side, you have lots of categories, and even should someone be off on many, a person reading the individual ratings of the game might glean more information from this system than with a review that was mainly prose. At least you have hard data.
On the slightly less positive side, I'll give an example of someone's rating that I disagree with, with absolutely no offense meant to the author:
quote:
Originally posted by Arhu
Deus Ex
Story: 3 (no 4 because there's only a few side quests, otherwise it fits the bill)
Characters: 2 (regarding 'level-up' as 'chapter' - could this interpretation be added to the system?)
NPCs: 3 (no 4 because dialogues are very basic)
Gameworld: 2 (no 3 because of the relatively small game world (levels) and paths between levels are fixed)
Manipulation: 2 (no 3 because there are only a few (not customized) items)
Combat: 4 (no 5 because the amount of different monsters is fairly limited, among others..)
RPG factor: 2.7 ~> RPG Light
Secondary: GFX 4 (19..?), SFX 4, Length ?, Diff. 3, Persp. FP-FIX, Playst. SP-S/MP-PvP
The purpose of critiquing this particular game is because it's a game I know fairly well, have played it a few times, and to point out that there's still, despite the absolute details in your system, a fair amount of interpretation involved. If you are not at all interested in Deus-Ex or any sort of review of it, I recommend you stop here.
The ratings:
STORY Rating above: 3
My rating 4.5 (and your rating scale might not include decimals but I have for the sake of argument). The reason. The story in Deus Ex has these from your "Heavy" definition.
-Lots of books or other materials can give additional information’s about world for the interested player.
Datacubes are strewn about all throughout the game, each giving the player more flavor of that particular area, and of the story as a whole. This is above and beyond the already fine narrative that is scripted better than most other games, including RPG's. Here, depending on what you DO, not what option you choose, can significantly impact the story and/or dialogue. Do you rescue your brother Paul, or do you choose not to and let him die? It's hard, but if you do, he comes back and alters the story somewhat. Do you, on the plane, kill the prisoner as is your assignment, or do you let the other agent? Whatever you choose, there will be consequences, whether just dialogue or actual game-changing events. But you can count on dialogue changing constantly each time you play, if you decide to take other actions.
For instance, I killed not a single "terrorist" in mission 1. Not only was this good in one person's mind, but to another, the agent you were working with, it was a bad thing and reflected in her attitude toward you. It's amazing the influence you can have over the game with your actions, and the new dialogue that appears.
Also, stand around and listen to the guards talking. You'll listen for a very long time, every time before they repeat themselves. Anyway, I think my point has been established that one person can have a different opinion of the rating scale, even though it is seemingly explicit.
CHARACTER Rating Above: 2. This makes me wonder whether the person above played the game much. This is one of the finest examples of open-ended gameplay yet made, with regard to the development of the protagonist character. Is it a pure traditional RPG? Certainly not. But is the character extremely customizable? Let's see, multiple skills, with multiple levels, experience for finding new areas, finding hidden objectives that goes toward increasing any trait up to 3 additional times.
This may seem like a low number to some. But what's the difference of adding 20 points to your Strength skill in Wizardry VIII or simply adding to your strength with an augmentation in Deus Ex, and having the CHOICE whether to use it at an appropriate time, not having the game make the roll every time? I would say more choice in character development = more of an RPG. Heheh, in case your'e wondering, I think Wiz 8 is one of the coolest RPGs of all time, and is yes, more customizable than DE, but I was giving one example. Just because a system has more points to distribute, doesn't mean it gives the player more freedom. There's a whole huge can of worms there so lets not go there in this thread.
Besides the initial traits which each have varying degrees that make significant impacts on your gameplay style, you can receive augmentations, and multiple augmentation levels which all lead to choices on how to develop your character. No, there are not "professions" per se as in a traditional RPG, but the combinations you choose (this being a single-player game and not a party-based game) have significant impacts.
I'd give the Character rating a 4.
I could go on but by now, if you've read this far, you're probably ready for it to end. I'll just give my ratings for the rest, as compared with the above:
NPC's: 4. Scripting, more scripting, reacting to your every action. Dialogue reactions to your actions are amazing. Go back to any NPC in the game, at any time and they'll likely have something new and informative to say, whether it relates to the story or their own attitude toward you.
Gameworld: 5. It's nearly completely free. Every level has multiple places you can explore, in no particular linear path, and your options for almost any quest are multiple... which cannot be said of the vast majority of RPGs out there. There are multiple ways into and out of almost any building, which all have an impact on strategy, story, your character development, etc.
Manipulation: 5. Nearly every object can be used. You can pick up items that are not required in any way nor helpful to completing the game. The interactivity is virtually unrivalled, except in the Ultima series... oh my were those good memories...
Combat: 5. This is where it's almost like having a party, and you're just playing one character. The options on how to take out bad-guys are incredible. They range from... you don't have to, to you can make them unconscious, to you can kill them silently, or to you can kill them with no regard for repercussions. The weapons all have wonderful upgrades possible, the scope and wavering system is incredibly well done, to the accuracy and stats on the weapons and ammo. The variety of your arsonal is astounding. Now I sound like a marketing guy. Want to know the weirdest thing? I didn't even play this game seriously (though I had it) until late last year. It still blew me away that much, even after being out 2 years.
As you can see, I rate this game quite highly. By its very twitch-required action-oriented gameplay, rather than turned-based combat, I cannot recommend this to any RPG fan that has an aversion to action or coordination. Even if you play it completely stealth based, you'll have some action. However, if you don't fall under the above category, at least to me, this was an RPGlover's dream.
So, I've sure covered a lot of territory in that post, but the main thing I want to leave is that in cross-genre games like Deus-Ex, it's very hard to give an RPG rating because it's really not completely a traditional RPG. You really HAVE to add that it has a lot of action and I'm not sure if the system above does that. It comes down to this basically. Say you rated it as an RPG: 2.5 for instance.... in the "light" category. Now say you rated it in the action category. 2.5 for instance... again in the "light" category because it certainly is anything but all action. Now, if you like RPG's, you probably won't pick this game off a list... even though it deserves to be. And if you like action, you probably won't pick it, even though it has plenty when the time requires.
My impression is that your system is at least partially based on the quality of the game. If it's strictly meant as an "index" of sorts, to rate it's RPGness, then I apologize, though the above stands as an argument to the interpretive aspect of it. I wouldn't hesitate to give the game high marks even in its RPGness. Dang this is long.
Applebrown |
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Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:03 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Hi Applebrown
Thanx for your comment on this topic. You have indeed written a long post, and I don't no where to begin my comments, but let me start clarify our intensions with this topic!
Our system should determine how much RPG-elements, a PC-game contains, not necessarily how much fun it is to play, as there are players who love more or less RPG element in the games, and some none at all!
As you conclude yourself it's not an easy task, and we never thought it would be, but we still wanted to make the challenge (for fun ofcourse)!
Our system is only created to evaluate CRPG (computer RPG's) and not P&P or others alike board games!
First challenge ofcourse was to determine what is (C)RPG elements and what is not, and this discussion may always be open, but I think we have covered most of the topics one have seen in any CRPG's.
Next challenge was to categorize the RPG elements and weight the different topics importance in each element category!
We are now in the state where we need refine the text in system, so that it would be easier to determine if a game fulfills the criteria or not, to get on to the next level RPG score points. We have decided not to use any half or other fractions of numbers, if a game can't completly fullfill a criteria but only some of it. Either the game fulfill all the levels criterias, or the game gets a score equally to the level below! We have not put the most important criterias on the top score levels (not at all), most of them are on the medium level. On the top score levels are mostly the bells & whistle topics which really makes the game outstanding in this category.
Okay we are just started making evaluations on games to test our system, and we know that it probably still some tweaks and refining, but as I mentioned in my post above, our system should be based on facts, not emotions, meaning that 2 different opinions of a game still should end up giving a game almost the same CRPG-score with our system!
I'm sure we still wiil see quite different scores on the same game from different people, mostly because some people don't want to see the games lack of RPG-elements, and some haven't discovered some of the RPG features in the game.
Your example with Deux Ex is a splendid example, and I want to try making my version with Deux Ex, and hopefully our disagreements will be based game facts and not emotions as intended with the system!
This post is getting to long, so check my next post for my Deux EX RPG-score according to our system!
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Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:38 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
RPG-Score for Deux Ex:
I must admit that it has been a long time since I played this game, so I might have forgotten some features!
Story: 3. No 4 because The game doesn't have many side quest/stories only the main story, it don't matter if some elements fits in level 4 or 5 it still don't fulfill all level 4 demands so the score should be 3 in story, which for my opinion also fits for a game with only one storyline (twisting or not don't matter)
Character: 2. No 3 because As I recall it don't fullfill any of the criterias below!
-More than 5+ points to distribute on the character(s) at least 10+ different abilities (Attributes /spells / treats / skills) each time they develop levels and at least 15+ upgrades(Levels) of the character(s).
-Learning by doing covering the same amount of development is acceptable too.
-The characters can have considerable social impact on more than one society / guild. (Wiping out a society/guild is not counting)
The arguments about a single increasement in a skill opens up a few new features, is not rewarded in our system, and it maybe should, if we can find the correct words for this feature. I don't recall that my single point increase in the any of the very few skills available had that much impact everytime you increased it one point, but I could have skipped it in my memory!
NPC: 3. No 4 because it don't fulfill "-There are fleshed out dialogue trees" meaning a lot of topic choices and twisting conversations. I agree NPC's have more options after different happenings, but they are still very limited in conversation topics. And also the line "-NPC’s have considerable impact on the amount of Main / side- stories" is not fulfilled as the NPC's mostly only develop the story, not making a impact on the story which could have been avoided by not talking to the NPC!
Gameworld: 2. No 3 as none of the criterias are fulfilled:
Medium: 3 points:
-There are at least several physical path's to choose between, AND more will open up as the game proceeds.
I remember only one or two path from level to level
-Societies must give the feeling of a live community, with their own daily business, AND not just a few NPC's waiting for the hero's to come along and pass on a few quests.
No live community feeling with daily business, and NPC's are just waiting for the hero to come along
-The size of the game-world must be considerable. All levels together may be sizeable and therefore it could be defended with a "yes" for this criteria, but each level wasn't that big, and you are very limited in your path choices when you start on each level!
I think in the "gameworld" category lacks a lot of things: Size: It's only containing one building (dungeon), and only one society, we difine gameworld size, with lots of different landscapes, areas, and more or less connected different societies, which Deux Ex doesn't have. It don't matter if their is much to do in the world, as it goes under another category (manipulation), here we only talk about size, variation and no conditioned freedom, which Deux Ex don't have much of as I remember it.
Manipulation: 3. I must admit I'm not sure about how much custom (Player made) items the game contains, if any???. If none the score should be 2, otherwise I could agree with a score on 3, but defently no 4 points:
-You can see /influence changes in the environment, OR use it either to create/ manipulate things or get strategic possibilities in combat.
(Summarised: Game-world environment itself offers several interactivity possibilities: (Chopping trees, make fire, diving in water, hide behind objects, move/destroy/manipulate objects, etc.)
I don't recall Deaux Ex to have several of the mentioned interactivepossibilities, only a few!
– A few different ways of making custom items must be available.
Not in Deux Ex!
-Combat 4. No 5 because:
-Each characters can be controlled individual down to the smallest detail and in any pace wanted.
Deux Ex has only the Action pace!
-The monsters must offer a lot of difference both in numbers, abilities, battle environment, which must offer quite a diversity in battle approaches.
Deux Ex do not offer a lot of different enemies
- Monsters AI are considerable.
DeuX Ex monsters didn't have high IQ's mostly like "doom" monsters
Totally CRPG score 3+2+3+2+3+4 => 17/6 = 2.17 => CRPG-light
Again I must point out that it doesn't mean this game is a under medicore game, just that it don't contain that much RPG-elements. Many gamers would even deny that Deux Ex is a CRPG at all, and say it's only another interesting shooter with a few twists.
I played Deux Ex with as much pleasure as I played "Doom 2", "Hexen" and other fun shooters, but alone the Keyboard banging action pace in Deux Ex alone, or the gameworld divided in levels and weapons item only manipulation did make the game feel father from an RPG game than a shooter game IMHO.
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Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:38 pm |
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Applebrown
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Canada |
Ah, thanks for the explanation. If I could be allowed to help though with the system, because I see one immediate loophole that probably can be refined. Here's the paragraph (or two) of yours where I made the observation:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael C
First challenge ofcourse was to determine what is (C)RPG elements and what is not, and this discussion may always be open, but I think we have covered most of the topics one have seen in any CRPG's.
Next challenge was to categorize the RPG elements and weight the different topics importance in each element category!
We are now in the state where we need refine the text in system, so that it would be easier to determine if a game fulfills the criteria or not, to get on to the next level RPG score points. We have decided not to use any half or other fractions of numbers, if a game can't completly fullfill a criteria but only some of it. Either the game fulfill all the levels criterias, or the game gets a score equally to the level below! We have not put the most important criterias on the top score levels (not at all), most of them are on the medium level. On the top score levels are mostly the bells & whistle topics which really makes the game outstanding in this category.
"We are now in the state where we need refine the text in system, so that it would be easier to determine if a game fulfills the criteria or not, to get on to the next level RPG score points."
This is where I think you're caught up. This is the foundation to your system, and without fixing the subjectivity of it, I think refining it will only bring about frustration, because this is where I see the loophole.
The problem here is that you're, even though you've obviously given this a lot of thought and are well-acquainted with RPG criteria, are basing your levels upon your own subjectivity. From one level to another, you've made specific criteria, that, unless it can be matched or exceeded, will prevent the said game from achieving the next level of RPGgoodness. That's well enough, but you want to reduce the subjectivity, and in your making up the level criteria - different from just making up the criteria - that's where a large amount of subjectivity comes in.
What's to say that a level 2 criteria shouldn't be placed at level 3, or higher? Do you see? You've thought this out, but you'll probably agree there should be a way of refining it so it takes out even your own administative bias towards the level requirements and what makes it in, at least partially. I have a suggestion or two or three that I think can solve the problem at least with the initial subjectivity. First, is the system your own or did others help with devising it? I'd rather use email as it's faster, and we can post our findings here, if you decide to use any of it in your approach. Let me know,
applebrown@gamebanshee.com
AB |
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Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:47 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Hi Applebrown
First of all, it's not my (own) system, the other guys posting here have had their big influence on the outcome, I have just made the layout for the different versions to summarize all our ideas.
Your remarks about subjectivity in the different criteria levels is very relevant and true to a certain degree, and I'm sure our own personal RPG element favorits have gotten more or less an important part on their place in the point system. But it's damn hard to be completely neutral, and beeing more people who decide in majority, the more we may get the criterias ordered in a fair way. I know we still needs some tweaking in this regard, but we at least got started on this complicated task. If you have any other suggestion or approach I'm very interested in reading about them, but I think we should keep it in this topic, for others to be able put in some comments /ideas we could have neglected/used!
I'm very interested in how you would decide the criterias for the different levels without any personal subjectivity!
Ofcourse we could eliminate the hole score system, but it's the hole point in this system, and the challenge, to have quick view score system for each RPG category, so each gamer quickly can get a hopefully valid RPG element factor for a new (or old) games, instead of (or as an extra feature for) reading long reviews!
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Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:19 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
17/6 = 2.8333333333
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Wed Jan 22, 2003 7:52 pm |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
Hello there!
I am by the way the one who made that post on usenet, glad that at least one person made it here, hopefully more will follow!
Applebrown: No offence taken. It's nice to have people with various opinions on one subject, so they can discuss and point out strengths or weaknesses of each others' arguments.
For reference, this thread started out with a question by Myrthos, asking how many RPG elements a game should have to be covered by RPGDot. Quickly various opinions and ideas came up to define what these elements actually are, then Michael proposed a very early draft
of his current system, which we built upon because it was easy to use and it seemed to incorporate the ideas that he stated in his post above, which I realize I'm just reciting right now, so I better stop here. 
I personally wouldn't use the term "review" in regard to this system, because the latter isn't supposed to judge games. Maybe "scale" is a better word, although this could likewise imply that high numbers are "better" than low numbers, which also is not the case. You could regard it as a scale with colors instead of numbers, from dark to light. Some people like certain colors more than others, which I think describes the essence of the system pretty well.
Like Michael implied, a game that is very RPGish in the story department, which by our current standards includes an open ended world with lots of background information, quests and happenings (Morrowind comes to mind), is not necessarily good for all types of players, some probably don't like open-endedness at all and prefer a linear but (to them) more interesting main story.
The subjectivity that played, and maybe still plays, a role in this regard is the fact that we had to state what "RPG light" is and what makes a game "RPG heavy" in a given category. Iirc, we basically defined minium requirements for a game to be called "RPG" in any of the various areas. For a "heavy" rating a game really has to offer lots of possibilities, things that make for a more believable world that you can freely move and act in.
(Deus Ex Story)
~My rating 4.5 (and your rating scale might not include decimals but I have for the sake of argument). The reason. The story in Deus Ex has these from your "Heavy" definition.~
This is a problem I've also stumpled upon before. Sometimes a game fits perfectly to some of the descriptions in the 'heavier' definitions, but doesn't quite fulfill all of them, or maybe even none of the definitions right below that. As Michael said, we agreed (I think ) that all levels are minimum requirements, or boundaries so to speak. Therefore the initial clause: "To determine if a game should apply to a certain level, all the mentioned demands must be fulfilled in that level and the levels below."
And yes, this is also kind of subjective. Take Character Development for instance. What's more important, character customization in the beginning, or actual character development throughout the game? Deus Ex is limited to a few faces and a custom name, but has lots of options to customize your abilities later on. Baldur's Gate offers lots of options during the creation process, but due to the D&D rule set later development is fairly limited. I think we eventually considered the actual development as more important, which is in a way also reflected in the system. More specifically the creation part became a requirement for the heavier ratings, in other words, if a game has good character development, it can be considered an RPG quite easily in this category, but if it wants to be considered "RPG heavy" it has to provide good development and customization on top of that.
All this is of course based on our own subjective standards, and I'm really interested in what you have up your sleeve in this regard. One way could be to relativize the criteria some more and use additional ANDs and ORs.. Mmmm, but that might make the system even more 'subjective'. Don't know. I'm tired... 'Night.
Oh, one last thing - I have played Deus Ex, once as a sniper with a few hacking abilities for the "Thief" like kick, and once as a brute Rambo guy.
My mind is pretty clouded right now which prevents me from thinking about the specific criteria too deeply, just let me tell you that I agree at least that Deus Ex has several RPG features that excel even those of games that are pure RPGs.
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“Through the sounds of falling rain, through the clouds of bitter times
I see the pure grace of your smile, in dreams of the warmth in your eyes” - Tim North |
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Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:29 am |
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Applebrown
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Canada |
Okay, here's what I propose. First I'll say what, and then I'll explain why. Hopefully, it'll make sense, but I've been on this computer all day so who knows.
It's obvious that you mean for the system to be a scale, and not a judgement on the game's quality. However, that's a problem because that's what imposing subjective ratings and limits on each and every criteria do. If it's meant to be a scale, let's make it like a scale. That means ridding it of subjectivity (as much as possible), getting rid of the individual weighting of each criteria and making them roughly equal, and finally, listing all of them out together, and looking at how MANY of the criteria the game has as a whole, as its final score.
What needs to be done for this system, is this:
1. Make a list AGAIN, of every criteria you have for a specific category, say Manipulation for instance. Only this time, do not put them into subcategories such as "RPGlight" or "RPGHeavy". Instead, just list them out one after another, with the ones you have already. Simple enough. You can just take the "Ultra light", "Light", "medium" etc. headers off.
2. Put each similar criteria (such as "- A few chest barrels is scattered through the game. " and "Traps, levers, keys and alike is available in it's simple presence." --> both deal with simple explicit items in the game <-- near each other in the list, to make so that later it is easier to see what can be streamlined or changed.
3. Continue listing each criteria out for every major category in your list: Story, Characters, Gameworld, etc... simply take away the "levels" and list the criteria out semi-categorically near each other on down the list. It would look like this:
Story:
-criteria a (somewhat similar to b)
-criteria b (somewhat similar to a)
-criteria c (somewhat similar to d)
-criteria d (maybe somewhat similar to c)
-criteria e
-etc. for all elements that make up a story in a typical "RPG"
Characters:
-criteria a
-criteria b
-criteria c
-criteria d
-criteria e
-etc. for all elements that make up "Character Development" in a typical RPG.
Manipulation:
-etc. and so on
4. now comes the toughest part: streamlining - getting rid of whatever redundancy and subjectivity there is in each of the criteria. Example.
criteria a says: "You need exactly 15 races/classes."
criteria b says: "You need at least 10 races/classes."
criteria c says: "Maximum of 5 races/classes."
Well, obviously, races and classes are not in every RPG. Mostly only in D&D games. You won't see races and classes in an Ultima, yet it had a party. But, instead there were archetypes (if you don't know what an archetype is, think "professional stereotype" in this case). Of course, you had archetypes like Iolo the "Ranger", Shamino the "Rogue"... etc.
Instead of using races/classes as a requirement, (and this is where it takes a lot of thought), use something like:
CHARACTERS: (this major category is just for organization)
Creation: (this subcategory is just for organization)
criteria a: Character Creation makes use of different professional archetypes such as: magic user/fighter/computer specialist/tracker/systems analyst/rogue/etc.).
***Extremely important*** It's critical that we do not limit the list to criteria that ONLY make a traditional RPG. If all the criteria we have make up the exact game like, say Wizardry VII or VIII, or Bard's Tale, then we've done nothing except throw a scale that rates on a curve, with Wizardry VII or VIII being at the upper limit. This is not what we want. The only way to prevent this is to work and REwork the system from exceptional amounts of experience, as to what ALL encompasses RPG's, not just the "traditional" RPG.
One example criteria that we should consider is this:
criteria a: There are multiple side-quests or non-plot related objectives in the game.
We can't keep using only traditional RPG terminology, but instead branch out on the themes.. That's why I used "non-plot related" in the criteria above, because some games will not use the word "quests"... but they are the same thing as "non-plot related objectives." Maybe in one game you find them on your own and they aren't "given". That should still count. So by using these general terms we enable most everyone to rate a game. By keeping a database of everyone's "rating" of the game, and averaging out the score, it will provide a pretty good index of the RPGness of a game.
The hardest part is making all the criteria generally equal. Definitely the hardest part. We have to strip the criteria first of all the subjective statements such as "has an interactive world"... and make them more objectively explicit... narrow each one down that doesn't convey a single meaning. After that, no matter HOW many criteria are in the final list, a game gets an "RPG Rating" based off the number of criteria checked off, and nothing more. That's the beauty.
The most important thing to this theory is that, with enough criteria, any game that gets (and this is where the system is REALLY cool) a score doesn't HAVE to be rated as "RPGHeavy" or "RPGLight". If your game checks off say 79 out of the 100 criteria for RPG's. that will be it's RPG Rating, period. It will ONLY be rated against other games that rate on the scale. You don't have to give it any other category except for that rating.
The best part about this is that you take another game, and it gets 59. It's all relative. If no games are getting above an 80, then you know basically that those games are, as you put it before "RPG Heavy"... without US doing a single thing... just listing off criteria and counting them.
At the end, just like you have, you'd list "other" parameters about the game such as:
"Isometric, Party-based, Single/Multiple (max 64 per game), 3D (characters), 2D Tilesets, Min/Max Hours = 40/100 Single player, etc..."
So there's the system. A simple list of criteria, all generally weighted out hopefully with the same importance (within each category like Characters or Manipulation), and ALL of them elements that we have seen in an RPG and mostly geared toward RPG's. The more criteria a game has, the more RPGness it has. A game's RPGness is only rated against other games, not the scale.
My idea doesn't stop there. I'd like to use this system for all the other genres as well. Action. Adventure (though I wrote something up on this the other day... the fact that RPG's are simply Adventure games with Character development + quests geared toward that newfound development... which came as quite a surprising revelation to me that night)....
ANYway, let me know what you guys/gals think of the reworking done above.
Applebrown |
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Thu Jan 23, 2003 4:09 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by HiddenX
17/6 = 2.8333333333
Arrg my mistake 
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Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:49 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Hi Applebrown
Interesting suggestion, which is not unlike a suggestion "hidden X" proposed a couple pages back. Actually I have dwelled a few hours in a system like that, and a few problems come to my mind, we need to discuss, before we eventually start develop it.
I think the 6 main categories (Story, NPC, Character etc.) covers with equally importans RPG-elements in a game. Ofcourse some people prefere one category stronger than another, that's why each main category should have it's own "RPG-score" for better evaluation of the game. 2 games scores perhaps 69% i totally score, but on totally different strong RPG-elements, which I think is important to know too. Okay the big problem is to make a fair % score both for each category, and the game totally, as I will explain. It's not to find the RPG-elements (criterias) for each category, that is the hard part. "Hidden X" already made a good list in a previous post, and we can extract even more from our current system.
Okay the criteria list you talk about is no problem to collect, but to design each criteria, so each of them should weight equally, is for me the same problem we got in the current system, as we have to decide which criterias is equally important. On the other hand all the games fulfilled criterias will be acknowledged if we don't level the criterias, as you proposed which I think is a good thing!
Problem one:
Ex. Gameworld:
Criterias:
A) Big gameworld
B) Day & Night shift
c) Weather shift
3 examples of gameworld criterias, which all are relevant, but certainly don't have the equally impact on a game, and shouldn't be rated equally important, but how make it fair, without making our preferences shine through. I don't think it's totally possible!
Problem Two:
Ex: Characters:
Criterias:
A) Different Professions for the character
B) Character development
Both a game like "Warcraft III" or alike, and a game like Baldurs gate 2, would get these two criterias checked, while Warcraft III do it barely, BG2 does it a lot deeper, which fairly should give more RPG-points, but how much more. Again we have to decide with neutrality if possible!
I think we still need to scale each criteria into more points, depending of how much of each criterias (if possible) is covered!
Suggestion Example:
Ex. Gameworld:
Criterias:....................1 Point...........2 Points...............3 Points
A) size........................Medium............Large..................Huge..
B) Day & Night shift........Yes..........Impact on game..................
c) Weather shift.............Yes..........Impact on game..................
It's just an example, I havn't put much thought into the text, it's just to make a point. Gameworld size can give the game between 0 and 3 points, while weather shift only can give the game between 0 and 2 points!
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Thu Jan 23, 2003 9:04 am |
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cronos
Village Dweller
Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 7
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Well I could say that Morrowind fits in all of these points or smt....Well MW is good and its really the best RPG that I ever played. |
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Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:30 pm |
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