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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
Guest
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A normal knight/paladin are generally tought that their armor/shield stops their incoming hits, and it better do so, becouse they are not likely to do much evasion in that steel thing. The only thing they need to focus on is to hit the enemy hard enough to take them down without them penetrating their armor.
The blade is also rather heavy. If it isnt a rapier or something you wont likely use it like a feather.
Some of the Martial Arts training still involves evasion of an armed opponent. They are trained both against swords, spears and staffs. Combat-trained Martial Artists know how to get up close with someone carrying theese weapons.
With this in mind, there are plenty of time to get in during the strikes, something that actually works very good in morrowind (except that there arent critical hits when you do it). They try to strike, you evade, you go in, hit them, get out, before they have chance to rise their blade again.
A golden rule in martial arts is that Ben Johnsson is the best self-defense artist in the world (he are able to run away), but this is a hostile world, so running wont do it if you are expected to complete a mission.
EverythingXen
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Monks are generally an overpowered concept in a fantasygame, and toning them down is another thing. Making them hit like a cotton club in the hands of a child is something completely different. In the Decelopers diary I read many times that Monks are the preferred class by many of the developers.
Try also read the Monk Description once. They say outright that Monks are the Martial Artist that prefers hand to hand and no armor instead of steel.
Mephisto
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Right... PICKPOCKET... There you said something... I shall try it out.
Cuular
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"Nope no monk, but an extremely stubborn underdog player in Video games. Just for the record I played a rogue from day 1 in EverQuest. You want to talk about patience..."
It is always the 'ignored' classes that are the most fun to play, even if I more commonly use Cleric's when they are available.
Guest
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Gloves cannot be enchanted with "On Hit" enchantments. "On Hit" echantments is the magical effect of an attack with a weapon. The only other alternative is to actually throw the attack as a normal spell, wich does not enhance your attacks in any way.
Brenner
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I havent learned to do something effective with spells so far... I have bought all spells I found, but there seems to be no spell that are effective enough to stand on their own (you can only have one spell active)
sauron38
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Ah. It seems to me that you missed the evasion discussion. Please try again.
Best Regards
JemyM |
Wed May 22, 2002 10:00 am |
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bpdlr
Guest
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I have a lvl 50+ HtoH char and I'm doing just fine thank you. OK, fights take a little longer and I can't take on too many monsters at the same time. BUT I don't have to lug around loads of heavy weapons or ammo (unless I want to) and have room for all my ingredients, potions and gem stones.
FFS people, this is a ROLE-PLAYING GAME, not a platform fighting game. It's not about how quickly you can dispatch the big monsters, it's about how you play the game. Grow up! :p |
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Wed May 22, 2002 12:48 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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EverythingXen
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Monks are generally an overpowered concept in a fantasygame, and toning them down is another thing. Making them hit like a cotton club in the hands of a child is something completely different. In the Decelopers diary I read many times that Monks are the preferred class by many of the developers.
Try also read the Monk Description once. They say outright that Monks are the Martial Artist that prefers hand to hand and no armor instead of steel.
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I know. And it's a shame/misnomer. I believe the developers were saying that Unarmed was their favorite type of weapon not their only type of weapon. I also think they may have been stretching things a little for the 'oh wow!' factor of the gaming community. As far as I can recall none of them said "I made it to level 80 using only hand to hand with no more difficulties than anyone else". They said they LIKED it. I suspect they did most of the testing at levels 1 to 20... going higher to make sure it all worked of course.
If they wanted monks to be martial artists they should have implemented more martial art to unarmed combat. Acrobat-skill using kicks for example that can knock someone over like a heavy blow from a weapon can. They did not. It looks like barfighting and its as effective as bar fighting.
I've said before that you can't please everyone... and the more people you please the more hurt those you didn't will be. I think martial arts in Morrowind falls into this category. Those who wanted to try it REALLY wanted to try it... and when it doesn't hold up are really dissappointed. And that is an honest to god no sarcasm damn shame.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Wed May 22, 2002 3:07 pm |
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Nael
Village Leader
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 86
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When I became a Quarra Vampire, I used H2H exclusively, boosting my H2H up to 100 points. I also had 101 strength. I went to Dagoth Ur and knocked him out in about 3 hits. He respawns of course and I go and do the same thing... in my own experiences I've found that good H2H nearly makes the game too easy. I'm no longer a vampire now as I have been cured but I still kick ass with teh H2H and use it exclusively. I don't think there's a damn thing wrong with H2H but you have to have both high str and especially high speed to make it worthwhile. That's my two cents
_________________
When at first you don't succeed... cheat |
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Wed May 22, 2002 3:16 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
bpdlr
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After you have tried out a weapon you will know that "a little longer" is a defenite understatement. There is a difference between taking out an opponent with 20-30 hits (skill 100) compared to the 1-3 you need with a trained weapon at skill 70.
EverythingXen
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Well, I cannot say anything more than that I do agree with you. You cannot plan for everything with a project huge as this one.
Nael
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Dagoth Uhr in 3 hits with H2H?
No. I am sorry. I do not believe you.
Maybee a rat in 3 hits, and yes, with 100 in everything.
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Wed May 22, 2002 6:38 pm |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
Ok:
Mage summons an undead army who beat all signs of life out of the fools who try to oppose him.
Monk: Dead
Warrior: Dead
_________________
Make good choices. |
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Wed May 22, 2002 9:18 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
sauron38
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*Yawn*
Yes, and my pantyhose of doom will annihilate your... TOENAILS!!!
/Jem |
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Thu May 23, 2002 6:58 am |
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bpdlr
Village Dweller
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 24
Location: London UK |
quote:
Originally posted by JemyM
bpdlr
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After you have tried out a weapon you will know that "a little longer" is a defenite understatement. There is a difference between taking out an opponent with 20-30 hits (skill 100) compared to the 1-3 you need with a trained weapon at skill 70.
JemyM, it's really not 20-30 hits, that would be boring. Last night I took down a Frost Atronach and a Flame Atronach with about 30 hits combined, after glugging a potion of Restore Health (home-made of course).
However it wasn't all HtoH. Once they are down, I tend to switch to a short blade (Daedric dagger) to get the health down quicker and push my Short Blade skill up. Plus while I was getting one of them, the other was beating on my armour and pushing that skill up.
You might say "Well why didn't you go for Short Blade in the first place?" Well, for a start, using HtoH means that the other guy can't hit me quite as hard as his Fatigue is getting sapped bad-style by my punches. It takes no time to get HtoH up to 100 and I'm sure it would take longer to do the same in Short Blade without taking much more damage.
I agree that some special moves for HtoH would be a bonus. My Khajit looks like a sissy scratching at the other guy's eyes during combat :p
_________________
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BaZ
Boycott Shampoo!
Demand REAL poo! |
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Thu May 23, 2002 1:52 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
I can only compare it with my warhammer, since Blunt Weapons is my secondary skill (You know, since you play monk yourself, I guess). I have 71 in Blunt Weapons, and are still able to defeat an Astronach in about 4 hits. And then I say KILL, not drop unconcious. And I can easily do it without having to rest afterwards since they do not drop me down to like 10% health becouse of it.
You know that you gain more levels when you increase your class skills than you non-class skills?
I reccomend Blunt Weapons in front of Short Blade.
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Thu May 23, 2002 5:28 pm |
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Mephisto
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 300
Location: Holland |
JemyM: While I do not dislike Monks, I feel you are a bit unfair now. We are talking about MONKS, not NINJA's or anything. Monks can DEFEND themselves against untrained THUGS and rovings bands. A well trained samurai will have no problems at all vs a well trained monk. Believe me.
Doesnt mean I dont think h2h should be beefed, it just means you are turning a priest-like character into a james-bond-superhero. |
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Thu May 23, 2002 6:18 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
It might be surprising, but Monk's are not my favorite class. Actually Cleric's are... And they use Divine Magic, a heavy mace and a massive plate armor. 
But there is a overall idea of what a Monk really is, and thats a unification of every hong-kong opera ever made.
Fantasy RPG is not always realistic you know... You cannot take a hit with a 2h blade and live... In reality, you do not have a major bunch of hitpoints... And even if you have trained a major load of sword wielding, you are still no match for a larger-scaled angry animal, like a rhino or an elephant.
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Thu May 23, 2002 6:37 pm |
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kamenjar
Village Dweller
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 15
Location: Chicago, IL |
I thought that hand-tohand had a purpose -- TO KNOCK SOMEONE DOWN -- And that is what is supposed to be!
Here is a simple scenario in which I used it... NPC John Doe had "Item X" on him that I needed to complete the quest, but I didn't want to kill him... I could not steal it from John Doe (my thieving skill was bad) and I could not persuade him to give it to me... So after my stealing failed, I went hand to hand ton him and knocked him down after a long fight... THEN I COULD take "Item X" from him and I just ran out of the building... I think that if I killed him I would get a huge bounty on my head, and there was no other way to get the item.
Hand to hand could be used by hardcore fighters that are do-gooders that don't want to kill in order to complete a quest because their speechcraft, illusion, personality or security sux. I could even see quests that are reqarding for these "kind gestures"... |
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Thu May 23, 2002 7:06 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
kamenjar
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And that is what it doesnt.
Or, do you count "hitting someone 20-30 times to make them lie down in 5 seconds" to be Knock down? In that case, you might be right.
And it still does not explain why Monk's are set up like they are, with the description they have.
H2H IS Monks primary weapon skill, and the description of them DO say that they fight with hands instead of weapons.
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Thu May 23, 2002 11:57 pm |
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txiabxyooj
Fox Spirit
Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 971
Location: here, there & everywhere |
i have a rhetorical question: i have run into a number of khadjit who claim to be from different "schools" of martial arts...so where are these different schools? don't get me wrong i enjoy MW but in many ways it is a game that is all bark and no bite.
_________________
"The origin of things, if things have an origin, cannot be revealed to me, if revealed at all, until I have travelled very far from it, and many revolutions of the sun must precede my first dawn. The light as it appears hides the candle." --Santayana
=member of the worshippers of the written word=
=member of the Non-flamers' guild= |
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Tue May 28, 2002 4:56 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
Just a snippet of text I say... Nothing you can learn, or that is implemented in the game.
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Tue May 28, 2002 8:48 pm |
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