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Alrik's Different Angle: Is KotOR A Star Wars Game Or Not?
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If you play a game for the stat system used, you're not really -playing- a role-playing-game. The system certainly affects one's enjoyment of the game, but only as far as how one can advance one's character. Role-playing-games are about character developement (as in personality, not stats) and the plot.

-Ostsol
Post Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:10 am
 
Roqua
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump
   

I'm more than 40 hrs into it and I feel that it is a kids game, but a good kids game. I am not a big fan of d20 at all. I enjoyed ToEE because of its tactical turnbased combat alone. D20's character building is crap compared to some others in my opinion (like Darklands, Legends of Arkania, hell, even buck rogers).

I think the push for balance is dumb, and that is what d20 does. Down with d20, up with dope...and super technical, complicated, choice and customization heavy, unbalanced, and hard to figure out and make a good party systems.

Warning, some spoilers ahead.

KotoRs party building is generic and lame. My protagonist is basically the same as Balista, the cather lady, and Jolle(sp?)'s. The only real choices to make in this game for character customization is whether to take implants, wear armor (and mess up some good Jedi abilities), or the real biggy choice you have to make: one or two handed melee. Wow. Thats some super customization options. Woopity-doo.

Let me add the main choice though, but it is really customization through story and not character building, the dark and light side. You can have force points for spells cost less or more if you are using dark or light side powers and are closer to dark or light. Of corse this should result in different choices for choicing force powers.

D20 is dumb, and seems to be made for an mmorpg. But that doesn't matter in KoTor becuse combat is so easy that you can be super-gimp and still breeze through the battles. The story is great in this game, especially if you are younger, and is the real selling point of this game. Besides wanting to play through again as the opposite side of the force.

ToEE proved that d20 can have some customization options that can have an impact on play, but it is still pretty weak. KoToR does nothing to improve on d20's weaknesses. KoTor is another PS:Torment; the story really sells it. But PS:T had some really tough combat at certain points and way more party options and diversity (which members you pick up has a big impact on combat, as well as which class your protagonist choices, etc), which KoTor has yet to have.

This is just my opinion anyway. I don't understand why some people are getting so mad because someone doesn't like the d20 system, or didn't clarify his meaning enough not to get flamed.
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Post Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:17 am
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niteshade
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Well I think it's true that KoToR doesn't do a very good job of showing off the great flexibility in character design that's present in the D20 system. By the end of the game most of my jedi seemed pretty similar. But this is not so much a weakness of the D20 system as the fact that they didn't really create a large number of valid "paths" to go when building your character, and by the time you get to lvl 20 you've taken most of the feats. D&D itself and any well made D20 game is very different. So obviously I definetely disagree with the last poster that the flaw has anything to do with the D20 system itself. Most people have raved about the depth of character design in TToE and Icewind Dale 2 however I can understand how it can take more experience and familiarity with the system to really understand the sheer possibilities you have in character design. And of course it's much better in actual p&p play where you have access to many more skills, feats, and class abilities.

Of course I can't claim D20 doesn't have flaws. But certainly lack of character flexibility and individuality will never be one of them. I have played a great many RPGs and I have found this is one area it's superior in.
Post Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:49 am
 
Paragon
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People, KotOR DOES use the Star Wars D20 Role-Playing Engine

It does NOT use the Dungeons & Dragons system, although the systems are not that different.

I should know, since I have the core rulebook for the pen & paper version of the Star Wars RPG, and have been enjoying KotOR too for the past few days.

If you aren't going to get the game due to the rules system, which system would you then have preferred? The only other RPG-system for Star Wars I know of, is West End Games old system, but that got outdated some 4 years ago!
Post Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:44 am
 
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D20 != DnD

D20 is an open source gaming system...basically meaning that the core mechanics of the system are free to be used in creating your own RPG universe.

D20 was invented along with and came out of the creation of DnD 3rd edition.

It is now used in many gaming systems, Star Wars, D20 Modern, DnD 3rd and 3.5 editions, Call of Cthulhu, Wheel of Time

In some respects all D20 games do share some characteristics and mechanics; but to say that those are all the same is just not true.
Post Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:43 pm
 
TheMadGamer
High Emperor
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Joined: 03 May 2002
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Location: Southern California
I somewhat agree
   

I somewhat agree with Alrik's post. Do I think this is a huge issue? Not really, but I do see his point.

With some of the fan made mod's coming out for the old Ultima games, I have some reservations as to how fun they'll be when I know that some will be made with Morrowind's engine, or DS's engine, or even NWN's engine.

I think they'll be interesting to check (especially since they're free anyhow). But somehow, the rulesets of those games are so very different from the rules used in the original Ultimas (which used far lesser rules), that they might lose the 'ultima' feeling.

Anyway, this is not a big deal. Bottom line is if the game is fun to you.
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Post Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:17 pm
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quote:
Originally posted by niteshade
It's actualy worth noting that in the current implementation of D&D, archers are often considered overpowered and way better then close combat types. This was fixed somewhat in 3.5, and some people might debate it, but my point is that you can hardly say ranged weapons being bad is a symptom of the D&D rules. If anything it's a strong departure from D&D rules.

Anyway like others have said, you should play the game before making judgements on it. In fact if your not that up on the actual p&p games (which it's clear your not) you probably won't even find that much which reminds you of D&D.


Really well how come "I mean this in all ernest" the archers are quite useless in the Current D&D CRPG's ? I am not meaning to argue this merely to understand.
Post Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:06 pm
 
niteshade6
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Well archery was actualy extremely strong in Baldurs Gate I&II, I know people who made their main guy an archer, and took all the other archers they could find and wiped the floor with their enemies. These games were also using 2nd edition rules though so archers were weaker. None the less they could still be quite strong (and according to some, the best way to go).

TToE has the problem that to the best of my knowledge, there are no mighty composite bows. This is a departure from the rules and weakens archers alot. Still they can be quite viable, they just take a power hit especialy at early levels. Even still I think one of the designers said his party consisted of 3 archers and nothing else (no henchmen even).


I'm not sure what other games you might be thinking of. I don't remember Icewind Dale that well, but that was mostly 2nd edition too, and I believe archers were still quite solid. I never tried NWN much so I can't speak for archers there.
Post Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:56 pm
 
Ariel
Harmonious Angel
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Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
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D&D or D20, does it matter?
   

First, let me tell you that I have played but 30 minutes of KotOR, which is somewhere in the tutorial. That aside, I do have to wonder: where is the difference between D&D and D20? If the latter is indeed derived of, or was developed along with, the D&D 3.0 rule set, then the similarities are profoundly apparent and can't be ignored.

One of Alrik's points was that a role playing universe and its rule set are inseparably intertwined in the minds of players. I agree with this sentiment - if the current D&D is a derivation of D20 and the Star Wars rules are another derivation of D20, and considered that D&D is so popular and well known whereas the SW rules as such are not, it doesn't matter where both systems come from. They essentially look and feel the same. The first thing that came into my mind when I was creating my character in KotOR and making a few steps in the game was: "Oh, D&D in space..."
Planescape: Torment also made use of a rather free implementation of the D&D rules, had tattoos and some different spells, yet it was still D&D. I don't see how KotOR is any different. Sure, they changed the names of some skills, feats, and provided implants (tattoos), but that's about it.

The Star Wars P&P game uses "its own" form of D20? D20, which is similar to D&D, which is generally and obviously associated with the various fantasy worlds of Dungeons and Dragons? Doesn't this strike you as strange? For a universe as vast as that from Star Wars, I would have expected a unique and special role playing system that... just fits to this one universe. D20 doesn't in my opinion, for the very reason stated above.


Now, all that said, I think a much more serious problem with KotOR is its console disease. I've read that they did a good job on making the game conform to certain PC standards, but why are the controls so quirky then?
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Post Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:57 pm
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niteshade
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Well I think the main issue many of us had is that the original poster complained how they did not use the rules for the Star Wars RPG, when in fact they did. If you dislike the Star Wars RPG or the D20 system that's another matter, but it's still a bit silly to complain that a computerized Star Wars RPG uses the rules of the pen and paper Star Wars RPG. That's almost like complaining that a Forgotten Realms game uses the D&D rules.
Post Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:01 am
 
Ariel
Harmonious Angel
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Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany
   

Yeah, well, he can be accused of ignorance, but even though his premise was not entirely correct, as many have pointed out - had he gotten his facts straight, the result would have been the same, and his actual arguments would have been just as valid, from a subjective point of view of course.

Given that the P&P Star Wars RPG is based on D20, I guess he isn't too fond of the idea either, and neither would I be for that matter, albeit I'm not into P&P anyway. Regardless, as the Star Wars fanatic he is, I also think that Alrik should probably give the game a shot. In the end it's most certainly about Star Wars, even if a bit tainted.
_________________
“Through the sounds of falling rain, through the clouds of bitter times
I see the pure grace of your smile, in dreams of the warmth in your eyes”
- Tim North
Post Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:09 am
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Roqua
High Emperor
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Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump
   

He should play the game. I hated NWN. I should hate KoToR, but something about it makes you want to play. And even if you don't like the game, and hate the mechanics of it, you still know it is a good game. Like PS:T with super-easy combat, and worse party mechanics, but with nicotine and crack thrown in.
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Post Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:08 pm
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niteshade
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Oh I won't deny that an arugment can be made that the D20 system can take away from the uniqueness of an individual game. However such an argument and discussion is probably better suited for a pen and paper RPG forum then a computer game one.

The fact is though that unless your extremely familiar with D&D rules, the only thing that should really make you think of D&D that much in KoTR are the stats. Everything else is pretty much something that's reasonably universal in RPGS, ie hit points, armor class, etc. And since the interface and gameplay engine are unique (not necesarily in a good way but still) you shouldn't have any flashbacks to previous D&D computer games.
Post Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:47 pm
 


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