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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Yes.
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Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
Thu Dec 12, 2002 6:43 am |
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hoyp
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 501
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Great! |
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:07 am |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by gothic sucks
edit: inappropriate and insulting language ==> message deleted, user banned.
Gorath
Isn't it just wonderful when someone can come into a new setting (RPGDot) and accomplish their apparent goal (getting banned) so quickly and efficiently  ?????
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 5:24 pm |
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Korzen
Forsaken
Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 3673
Location: The User Groups Section. |
I would be happy to see police working so fast in my country  |
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 5:56 pm |
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crpgnut
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 197
Location: St. Louis |
| Actually, I'm going to try to get back into Gothic |
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I'm a longtime crpger. It's all I play. I like a good storyline. I think that my
main gripe with Gothic was pacing. It takes forever to get into the meat of the game. I couldn't last long enough the first time through. The joining of
a camp idea was extremely monotonous. You have to travel to 3 different camps and talk to gobs of NPCs and do piddly tasks, then the game starts.
I got bored after talking to 5 or 6 of the people Diego? wanted me to see.
I generally play a mage and the fact that you really can't use magic until you've met several criteria really put a damper on this game for me. Does anyone know if magic is quickly useable in G2?
As far as the negative comments from the other people, it didn't bother
me. I don't worship any of my games, like these guys do, but I've had several that I would defend in a more coherent manner 
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'nut |
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 6:59 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
| Re: Actually, I'm going to try to get back into Gothic |
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quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
I'm a longtime crpger. It's all I play. I like a good storyline. I think that my
main gripe with Gothic was pacing. It takes forever to get into the meat of the game. I couldn't last long enough the first time through. The joining of
a camp idea was extremely monotonous. You have to travel to 3 different camps and talk to gobs of NPCs and do piddly tasks, then the game starts.
I got bored after talking to 5 or 6 of the people Diego? wanted me to see.
I generally play a mage and the fact that you really can't use magic until you've met several criteria really put a damper on this game for me. Does anyone know if magic is quickly useable in G2?
I don't understand. You say you only play RPG's, but you balk at common RPG tasks like talking to people, doing quests to move up, and playing a low end character to start. Your ROLL in Gothic is to play a nothing that rises to the top. How satisfying would it be to start in the middle and rise to the top?
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"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:18 pm |
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crpgnut
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 197
Location: St. Louis |
| Re: Actually, I'm going to try to get back into Gothic |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jung
quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
I'm a longtime crpger. It's all I play. I like a good storyline. I think that my
main gripe with Gothic was pacing. It takes forever to get into the meat of the game. I couldn't last long enough the first time through. The joining of
a camp idea was extremely monotonous. You have to travel to 3 different camps and talk to gobs of NPCs and do piddly tasks, then the game starts.
I got bored after talking to 5 or 6 of the people Diego? wanted me to see.
I generally play a mage and the fact that you really can't use magic until you've met several criteria really put a damper on this game for me. Does anyone know if magic is quickly useable in G2?
I don't understand. You say you only play RPG's, but you balk at common RPG tasks like talking to people, doing quests to move up, and playing a low end character to start. Your ROLL in Gothic is to play a nothing that rises to the top. How satisfying would it be to start in the middle and rise to the top?
No Jung, I don't balk at these things. All crpgs have them. I balk at the
amount of time spent in the 1st area before anything of significance
happens. I don't learn any spells, my skills don't go up, the quests
are mostly go talk to person A, do an in town task and then come
back to person A. This is monotonous in the extreme. Compare this
to say, Divine Divinity. You learn in the first couple of minutes that
the town wizard has gone nuts. He's possessed. You complete a few
quests that take approximately 15-30 minutes to solve that have zero
combat and yet allow you to raise a level. Then you get to pick whether
to improve your magic ability, your bow skill, your backstab or whatever.
From there you can decide whether to help the old dude out or go explore the countryside. Either choice is possible. I don't have to follow a rigid storyline that forces me to do things that I wouldn't bother with otherwise.
Why does my mage care if Bobby can't get his sword back from Tom? Swords are for mental deficients! See? I'm roleplaying my wizard, not being forced to follow the designer's idea of what I should be doing next. It sounds like Gothic 2 is going to do the same. You must join a guild before being allowed to progress in the game very far. Can I do this quickly? Can I start in any guild that I want to, or must I do 6 quests for Bubba, 5 of which my wizard wouldn't be caught dead doing? The difference between a good crpg and a bad one IMHO is in how many choices are given to your character from the very beginning. If I'm basically forced down one path, then it's not a well designed crpg. Again, I plan on giving Gothic another chance. I'm hoping that maybe I missed something the first time through.
I do remember enjoying being able to make a sword and then selling it for a profit. That was fun!
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'nut |
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:52 pm |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
I think basically what crpgnut saying is about the slow progression of the game's plot, especially at early stage. I remember some reviewers also complaint about it; however, no everyone will notice this or take it as weakness because different people see things differently.
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:10 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
| Re: Actually, I'm going to try to get back into Gothic |
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quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
... The difference between a good crpg and a bad one IMHO is in how many choices are given to your character from the very beginning. If I'm basically forced down one path, then it's not a well designed crpg. Again, I plan on giving Gothic another chance. I'm hoping that maybe I missed something the first time through.
I do remember enjoying being able to make a sword and then selling it for a profit. That was fun!
Gothic is a bit different in that you start with a clean slate character that you develop in-game, not on a character roll screen. It only makes sense that you can't cast a fire ball right off the bat since your character knows nothing yet. Doing this was fun for me, and felt more like I was playing a roll; trying to fit in the camp and figuring out what to do, and not just worrying about combat. It was even more satisfying whet I reached the point where i could put those who abused me early on in their place 
I didn't make any swords, but I had a lot of fun trying to outsmart the monsters, who I feel have the best(at least persistent) AI of any RPG I've played. 
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"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."
Last edited by Jung on Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:10 pm |
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crpgnut
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 197
Location: St. Louis |
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
I think basically what crpgnut saying is about the slow progression of the game's plot, especially at early stage. I remember some reviewers also complaint about it; however, no everyone will notice this or take it as weakness because different people see things differently.
That's it in a crpg-shell! I'm really hoping G2 "takes off" faster. Balancing
the game so that combat, questing, leveling, and storyline are all going
on without too long of a dry spell. I felt that Gothic was too verbose in the
beginning. I still plan on tackling this game again. I'm just trying to finish
Avernum 3 first. It's a BIG game!
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'nut |
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:11 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
That's it in a crpg-shell! I'm really hoping G2 "takes off" faster. Balancing the game so that combat, questing, leveling, and storyline are all going on without too long of a dry spell. I felt that Gothic was too verbose in the beginning.
If you thought it didn't have enough combat in the beginning (for example) then you don't know how to play wide open games like this one. No, it didn't do what so many games do which is funnel you into one path - you had options. If you CHOSE to read books (for example) then that is your fault - you COULD have been out fighting. I didn't find it at all boring in the beginning because I didn't just do one thing - when I was told (early on) to go talk to 5 or so people - I talked to one and then went outside and ventured on my own a bit - then came back. That is the beauty of an open game like Gothic - YOU have OPTIONS. If you didn't avail yourself of the options, then that is your fault not the game's.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:18 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
You can skip the first chapter with one of our quickstart savegames.
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:21 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
you COULD have been out fighting. I didn't find it at all boring in the beginning because I didn't just do one thing - when I was told (early on) to go talk to 5 or so people - I talked to one and then went outside and ventured on my own a bit - then came back. That is the beauty of an open game like Gothic - YOU have OPTIONS. If you didn't avail yourself of the options, then that is your fault not the game's.
That is true. At first, I started learning hunting skills along with the camp quests. Hunting is a fun way to buff up your character quickly 
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"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:56 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Jung
That is true. At first, I started learning hunting skills along with the camp quests. Hunting is a fun way to buff up your character quickly
Yep, I hunted everything I could early on - thus my character DID get a bump up (allowing me to improve) just as quickly (and more fun) than I did in DD.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:07 pm |
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Srikandi
Noble Knight
Joined: 04 Dec 2001
Posts: 222
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A couple of points on both sides of this:
In G1, it does take a long time to become a mage; you're pretty much forced to get quite advanced in combat (and go up several non-magic-using guild ranks) before you have an opportunity to get the first circle. Even though the character starts as a "blank slate", that seems unnecessary. However, I'm assuming that G2 will be different in this, since you can join the mages from the outset... perhaps somebody who has played it can confirm.
Is G1 really "wide-open"? I wouldn't have said so. Though in principle you can go anywhere at any time, many areas are guarded by extremely tough opponents, and the speed at which you can level -- or rather, see the results of leveling -- is tightly controlled by the game. This is because you only have access to particular trainers at certain plot points, and the progression of equipment (especially armor, but to some extent weapons as well) is controlled in the same way. This makes it much less "free" than most RPGs, where you can spend your level-up bonus any way you want at any point in the game.
Moreover, if you use a little creativity to take a different path than the expected one, you can fail to trigger crucial cutscenes and journal entries. For instance, I transformed into a bloodfly to take a shortcut over the mountains from the Free Mine to the Orc Village. Dropped right into the village, and missed a conversation with Ur-Shak, who stands at the "official" village entrance. Because I'd played the game previously I knew I should go out and talk to him, but if it had been my first time through, I would have missed some crucial information about getting into the temple. Missed another cutscene later by wasting an opponent with a spell instead of getting close enough to trigger the dialog. Mind you, I don't know any RPG where it isn't possible to "break" quests by thinking outside the box... I guess G1 is about average in this regard.
It's certainly true that there's a lot of talking. It adds depth, but can get repetitive. For those who don't like it, the solution is to turn on subtitles (you can read faster than you can listen) and use "escape" to zip through the conversations.
On the other side of the argument, I'd say there's a lot more freedom in the first part of the game than crpgnut realized. You don't have to do all the quests ("impress" all the people that are available to impress; you only need 4 out of 5, I think.) You don't actually have to go to all three camps. My last time through, I only visited the New Camp rather late in the game. There is that one sword delivery quest, but that was the ONLY quest of that type (delivery within the same area) in that part of the game; all the others had more to them than that, and I don't know any RPG that doesn't have at least a couple of simple fedex jobs. And that quest is optional.
Personally, in terms of choices, I preferred the first couple of chapters to the rest, because though the PC is more restricted in movement and skill development, there are a lot more quest-related options: you have several quests at once and can choose which order to do them in and which ones to complete. Later in the game you've pretty much only got one qest at a time and they have to be done in order.
Mind you, I like G1. Like all games it has strengths and weaknesses. It's looking to me like G2 has gone in the right direction, building on the strengths and eliminating at least some of the weaknesses, so I'm very optimistic. Whether it is different enough to satisfy crpgnut is hard to say! |
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Fri Dec 13, 2002 12:45 am |
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