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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
Warning: This is a novella, so if you don't feel like reading one...
I was challanged, in another thread, to do an experiment. I insisted that a fully charged Uriziel had to be a better sword than Innos' Rage. Even if you discount Uriziel's magic damage it still holds a +10 superiority over Innos' Rage, i.e. more weapon damage! I seems silly to even question it, doesn't it?!? Well! Let me tell you.
The challange was to insert a troll and kill it with Uriziel. Then do the same thing again, only this time, using Innos' Rage.
'Kay, challange accepted, lets make everyone who was trying to make me feel foolish eat their words! Banzai!!! So I loaded the only save game I have with a character who can use both Uriziel and Innos' Rage. Uriziel, my baby, went first! I had complete confidence in her, I felt totally empowered with her in my hands, just as I did through the entire end of my second time through Gothic.
I inserted my troll and went to work trying to kill it, now, I was never very good at this anyway. I always had to use the run away, hide, throw magic at it method to kill the trolls during the game, so my troll made impressively short work of Me. Very short considering Me was wearing Improved Ore Armor, an Amulet of Ore Skin and two rings of Greater invincibility! Knowing my history with trolls, I was trying to tip the scales toward Me as much as possible. 'Kay, I tried again with the same results.
I was starting to feel kinda gloomy because I didn't think I was going to be able to complete the experiment. I'm not good enough at fighting to beat a troll with a sword, I always relied on the tendency of the big 2H swords to knock an enemy off balance to keep from getting hit. It worked for me with every creature in the game except the troll! So believing my own limitations were going to keep me from being able to tell the the difference between the two swords I became somewhat despondent and kinda lost sight of the project.
I exported my character and into the text/hex editor I went! I inserted single hand skill level 2, went back into Gothic, and imported my newly buffed up Me. I'm not sure why I went this direction, like I said, I guess I lost sight of the project.
Working on The Cooh's theory that two handed weapons are too slow, I inserted Scar's sword (The Cooh's favorite) and spent 10 minutes or so getting familiar with the single hand moves and timing.
When I felt ready I inserted my troll. Cooh, I have an entirely new respect for you, because if you really finished the game this way (which I'm sure you did!) you are a way, way better player than I am. I was nothing but troll food!
Scar's sword might have been slightly faster, if it is, it isn't by very much. At least it isn't in my hands, but then, I didn't spend nearly the entire game perfecting myself with it before I met any serious monsters. The much shorter range of Scar's sword and the fact that it didn't seem to have the stopping effect of Uriziel made "Stranger fall off mountain" over, and over, and over.
I almost quit there. I was all ready to come wandering back and tell Val that I couldn't do the experiment, because I couldn't beat a troll with a sword! But, she had said to try both ways, so I took out Innos' Rage, inserted my troll and... butt kicked it like an ex-boyfriend! I couldn't believe it! I simply couldn't, so, I inserted the troll again. I got the same result, the troll never touched me and I was like, oh... my... god, I don't stink after all!
I sat down to decide how I was going to quantify this and decided to run the experiment over properly. I loaded my original save again, because it was a character I had come by fairly, without any cheats or hacks.
I decided I would run the experiment in an enclosed area, the arena in the OC, in order to limit the range of the troll. I would kill the troll five times with each sword using only r/l hits and counting only hits that did damage, in order to arrive at an average number of hits it took to kill the troll with each weapon. If I lost count I would not include that sample and start over.
At the completion of the exercise, Innos' Rage was clearly better. In the arena I was able to back the troll into the wall and defeat it with both swords. It took so many hits to beat the troll with Uriziel, that I kept losing count and had to start over. I finally decided that I wasn't going to be able to come to an exact number for Uriziel.
But Uriziel was supposed to do more weapon damage! So I started to think maybe the troll itself was an anomaly, maybe it was specifically resistant to Uriziel for some unknown reason. I decided to do the experiment again using two more high HP monsters: swampsharks and minecrawler queens. Here are the results, for whatever it's worth.
These are the stats of the character used in the experiment. They were arrived at fairly within the game progression dynamic.
Guild: Mercenary
Level: 32
Strength: 206
Dexterity: 154
Mana: 190
Life: 654
2H Sword level 2
Crossbow level 2
Acrobatics: yes
No other skills.
Test results are as follows:
Uriziel
Monster Average number of hits
Troll ?
Swampshark 4.8
MC Queen 5.6
Innos' Rage
Monster Average number of hits
Troll 6.6
Swampshark 1.4
MC Queen 2.0
Comparing the two monsters that gave results on both swords, there is a difference between them of 3.058, or almost exactly 3:1. Using this result to extrapolate Uriziel's damage on the troll yields an average of 20.2 hits to kill it. That number is probably pretty close, It took a lot of hits with Uriziel to kill the troll.
Well, my experiment took the better part of last night, but I like research so no big.
Why is Innos' Rage 3 times better than Uriziel? Why are they treating Uriziel differently than the rest of the weapons in the game? Shouldn't weapon damage be consistant? Fully charged, Uriziel should be a better sword (albiet the difference is a neglegable +10) than Innos' Rage.
Sauron38 told me why during the discussion about which sword was better. "Nay, Innos' Rage adds strength damage".
Why isn't it strength+weapon on Uriziel as well? Even not including the magic damage it should be strength+120. Thinking about it, I guess it's because Uriziel is intended to be the big weapon if you have very low strength like a mage usually does.
I know it looks ridiculous, like it's made out of aluminum foil with razor wire around the edge and it's nearly as tall as Me. But you have to go through so much to get it, it seems like it should be the big sword in the game! And they make such a big deal about it too! The Orcs feared it so much that they hid it so that it wouldn't be in the hands of humans!
I wouldn't even mind if you only had to use it on the undead shaman. But the stats make it misleading if it's limited to +150 and strength plays no part.
Anyway, Val, I'm so sorry that I kept arguing about this when I didn't know all the facts. Sauron38, Gorath, you were totally right and I shouldn't have been questioning any of you. Most of you have been at this way longer than I have. I'm really embarassed. 
_________________
From the desk of the H.A.O.D.L. president. You will be hearing from our attorneys, Gurrak, Og-mok and Platt!
"Humans Against Orc Defamation League" copyright Val @ Acronyms 'R' Us 2002.
[ This Message was edited by: Gig on 2002-03-13 17:09 ] |
Wed Mar 13, 2002 11:08 pm |
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Ariakas
Counselor of the King
Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 354
Location: Texas |
A lot of great research Gig,
but will either one of these swords come close to the burning sword as far as damage goes?
I hit one of the immortal gate winch guards with it eariler, and he caught on fire and just stood there shaking for about 5 minutes game time.
_________________
PUBLIC NOTICE AS REQUIRED BY LAW: Any Use of This Product, in Any Manner Whatsoever, Will Increase the Amount of Disorder in the Universe.
Although No Liability Is Implied Herein, the Consumer Is Warned That This Process Will Ultimately Lead to the Death of the Universe. |
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Wed Mar 13, 2002 11:58 pm |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
You have learnt much, but your training is not yet complete.  |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:07 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Listen to the All-Seeing, All-Knowing Eye.
As before, apology accepted.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:10 am |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
No problem. See it positively: you found out the truth.  |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:19 am |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
*Adjusts belt for the 'sitting-like-you-own-the-place-position'.* |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:21 am |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
quote:
On 2002-03-13 18:10, Val wrote:
As before, apology accepted.
Thank you!
_________________
''Perhaps I'm old and tired but I always think that the chances of finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied. Look at me: I design coastlines. I got an award for Norway.''--Slartibartfast |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:42 am |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
I'll never stay mad with any Council Member for too long. |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:48 am |
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the COOH
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 03 Mar 2002
Posts: 102
Location: Massachusetts, USA |
Well Gig, nice bit of research. Do you by any chance like science?
Anyway, yes I did finish the game using that sword. I must say I am a little bit bias, I never fully trained in 2-handed weapons so I don't know if 2-handed weapons are as fast as 1-handed if your fully trained. What I do know is, with 1-handed weapons you can attack while running. That fact, is why I used 1-handed weapons.
While I found your comparison of the two swords excellent, I thought I would add some data of my own.
Using the same format as you, I killed a troll, a swampshark and the minecrawler queen five times each. The only difference was that I used Scar's sword. Here are the results:
Troll: 53.6 hits
Swapshark: 10.3 hits
Minecrawler Q: 3.3 hits
As a side note, my character's status was:
Strength 75
Dexterity 55
Life 448
In the real game, I never attacked the troll using weapons. I always like to use magic. But I found that if you rush up to the troll, and hit him in the stomach, he will be stunned and you can just keep hitting him until he's dead.
_________________
Use all information at your own risk!
[ This Message was edited by: the COOH on 2002-03-13 19:33 ] |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 1:27 am |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
quote:
On 2002-03-13 19:27, the COOH wrote:
*Well Gig, nice bit of research.
**Using the same format as you, I killed a troll, a swampshark and the minecrawler queen five times each. The only difference was that I used Scar's sword.
*Thanks, I had fun doing it.
**I had intended to include Scars sword in the test, but the dynamics of my character didn't allow for it. I didn't have enough xp to train in 1H and I didn't want to "cheat" the skills back in.
Besides, I'm pretty sure I couldn't have given it a fair run. I hardly used 1h swords either time I played Gothic. I'm more of the shoot arrows and run away type until I can buy effective spell scrolls.  Plus, I have never trained in one hand so I've never given myself the chance to learn the timing. I became aware of just how deficient I was at 1h during this experiment.
I love your data, It's great!
I would have prefered to use a character with max stats closer to yours (100 strength)as a control subject. However, the only save I had that contained a character who could use Innos' Rage was right after taking all those power-ups from the Orc mummies, so, I did the best I could.
I had to defend your sword earlier in the "Orc graveyard and Orcs" thread, someone was spreading a little disinformation about what was the best 1H in the game.
_________________
''Perhaps I'm old and tired but I always think that the chances of finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied. Look at me: I design coastlines. I got an award for Norway.''--Slartibartfast |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 2:40 am |
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the COOH
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 03 Mar 2002
Posts: 102
Location: Massachusetts, USA |
Thanks for keeping the spread of misinformation down .
I would like to redo my experiment with a character closer to yours. The only problem is, when I finished the game my character wasn't at 200 strength. He was more like 180's. But, I will redo the experiment and see if the results change any.
I wouldn't try to do it with the 2-handed weapons that you used; because I'm really no good with two handed weapons!
Gig wrote:
I love your data, It's great!
Thanks
_________________
Use all information at your own risk!
[ This Message was edited by: the COOH on 2002-03-13 20:56 ]
[ This Message was edited by: the COOH on 2002-03-13 20:59 ] |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 2:53 am |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
The only reason I knew the code for Scars sword was because I had to look it up last night in order to insert it for my test... pretty ironic, huh? 
I can tell you exactly how I arrived at that character, if you want to know, it was simple.
At each level I applied the xp exactly this way: 3 points to strength, 2 points to dexterity and 5 points were saved for training.
Once I max'd out strength, I started putting all 5 points on dexterity. I didn't take any of the strength or dexterity power-ups until I had max'd the stat, although it didn't matter with dexterity. I wasn't able to max it out before the Sleeper temple where the game ends.
Once a stat hit 100 I took the power-ups for that stat.
This what the character looks like using that formula after taking all of the power-ups, including the ones in the sleeper temple.
_________________
''Perhaps I'm old and tired but I always think that the chances of finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied. Look at me: I design coastlines. I got an award for Norway.''--Slartibartfast |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 3:18 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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I am going to try and whomp that troll with my trusty pickaxe. I wish you didn't need to train 1 hand to get access to two hand... 100 points to master the pickaxe isn't cool.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 3:19 am |
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TheLonePaladin
Mighty Warrior
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 1808
Location: San Francisco, CA |
don't those high lvl creatures usually have loads of magic/fire resistance? if they do, that means Uritziel IS the superior sword (which i am still somewhat prone to believeing, even if numbers don't lie) someone should look into that, cuz, no offense to The All Seeing Eye, Uritziel being the best blade in the game would make more sense.
_________________
=Follower of Righteousness=
"Though the gates that stand between the mortal world and the immortal Realm of Chaos are now closed to me, still I would rather die having glimpsed eternity than never to have stirred the cold furrow of mortal life.
I embrace death without regret as I embraced life without fear." |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 3:23 am |
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the COOH
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 03 Mar 2002
Posts: 102
Location: Massachusetts, USA |
I see the error of my ways! I took a couple of those extra power up potions before I had reached the 100 level. I'm playing a new game so I'll try using your way.
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Use all information at your own risk! |
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Thu Mar 14, 2002 3:25 am |
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