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Arrowhead
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 28
Location: Seattle, WA |
| Gothic 2 Big Error (marketing) |
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I am playing Gothic for the second time and it is still one of my favorite games. I'm looking forward to getting Gothic 2 and after reading the reviews/posts its got me addicted already.
One things I don't understand is the problem JoWood had with low sales of Gothic and the game world not recognizing its value as one of the best RPG single player games. (My favorite RPG games that will be releasing another version include: Gothic, System Shock, Deus Ex, Arx Fatalis, Half life) I have also finished Morrowind including both expansions and left no stone unturned.
Here's the deal. I try to find new RPG games that will be released just because I'm a RPG junkie just like all of you but its a long hard search weeding out the online games and non first person games. In the case of Gothic the only reference I have found is in RPGDot and they even don't even have it on there release list.
Piranha-Bites/JoWood has released Gothic 2 in Europe hoping to get the attention but HOW? I haven't seen squat about it any other place.
Will G2 fail like G1 in sales because of lack of exposure? Are the game sites like the news media and only report on what they feel is important and not on ALL game news?
I won't have to be first in line to get Gothic 2 because I'm sure nobody knows it's coming out. I would have reserved it but after hearing the Game store idiot tell me "What's Gothic" I figured there would be no problem.
Good luck Piranha-Bites in you sales for the sake of all of us who love the game. I will promote you to others in hope there will be enough profits for Gothic 3.
_________________
It's a Dragon you idiot.............RUN
Last edited by Arrowhead on Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:53 pm |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
 From the title of your post you made it sound like there was huge crash or something.
quote:
Originally posted by Arrowhead
I am playing Gothic for the second time and it is still one of my favorite games. I'm looking forward to getting Gothic 2 and after reading the reviews/posts its got me addicted already.
It's a very good game. You should be excited. if you love G1, you'll certainly dig G2.
quote:
One things I don't understand is the problem JoWood had with low sales of Gothic and the game world not recognizing its value as one of the best RPG single player games. (My favorite RPG games that will be releasing another version include: Gothic, System Shock, Deus Ex, Arx Fatalis, Half life) I have also finished Morrwind including both expansions and left no stone unturned.
Yep. You're just lke me in that you realize how truly scarce first-person RPGs are. The topic often comes up "what is a game similar to Gothic?". The answer is always the list of games you already played: Arx fatalis, morrowind, etc. And of course, the biggest similarity is really in the gaming interface, not necessarily game play.
Anyway, providing the rich 3D envirnonment for exploration and RPing that Gothic does is a detailed and time consuming task. Actually I assume that making any commercial game is, but CRPGs even more so.
I think this is the reason why it is so hard to find games like Gothic/Gothic 2.
quote:
Here's the deal. I try to find new RPG games that will be released just because I'm a RPG junkie just like all of you but its a long hard search weeding out the online games and non first person games. In the case of Gothic the only reference I have found is in RPGDot and they even don't even have it on there release list.
Perusing the titles of your local game shop reveals that sngle player RPGs seem to be a small, focused market (niche). Then you have to further qualify that niche with first person games. Now you see why there are scant offerings.
The majority of PC games getting released tend to fall into either:
1. Real Time Strategy
2. First Person Shooter ( just a plain shooter with no RPG elements like Deus ex)
3. MMORPG
Game publishers of course are trying to making money. Apparently the figures dictate that these generes sell better than CRPGs. That's why practically *any* single player CRPGs (*not* some RTS/RPG hybrid) that comes out is a major event for hardcore fans.
And this is kind of off topic, but I actually don't like how RPGDOT covers games that are obviously strategy games whose only RPG trappings are that they may have "fantasy" themes (which in itself, doesn't necesarrily make it a RPG).
I'm talking about games like Etherlords 2 or Once Upon a Knight.
quote:
Piranha-Bites/JoWood has released Gothic 2 in Europe hoping to get the attention but HOW? I haven't seen squat about it any other place.
Will G2 fail like G1 in sales because of lack of exposure? Are the game sites like the news media and only report on what they feel is important and not on ALL game news?
Well G2 is being released by Atari over here in the states. Since Atari presumably has a bigger marketing machine, let's hope they get behind Gothic 2 a bit more.
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All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:32 pm |
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Arrowhead
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 28
Location: Seattle, WA |
Thanks for your comments on this subject.
I titled my post to attract readers and perhaps I should have been more truthful but having to replay good games while waiting for new releases hit its peak this morning and I just had to vent.
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It's a Dragon you idiot.............RUN |
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Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:55 pm |
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Angelo
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 108
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Gothic 1 and 2 are excellent games. Actually it was gothic1 that brought RPG games closer to me. Before that I didn't even ralise how great can a RPG game be. So I have to thank pyranhas for bringing us such a great game. I really don't know why the world doesn't appreciate the gothic series more, because it is one of the best RPG games ever! Maybe the problem is that pyranhas spend more time on the german version. I'm sorry for saying this but english version of G2 is hardly playable. Don't say to me it comes prepatched, because I can't imagine how it looked then without the patches. Problem with english G2 is that it crashes once a while, sometimes deletes saved games, works slowly (especially in the city) . Then the sounds for english version are really poor-the sound of footsteps is missing and also some other sounds and there are not enough different voices in the game. Then there is whole bunch of problems that you can hear here on the forum, from bugs where the quest is "stuck" to different crashes,.... Maybe the game is selling good in Germany and maybe it isn't so good in other countryes, because of the bugs,crashes...
I really, really like gothic so I hope pyranhas will keep up with the good work and bring us the addon in english and gothic3. Maybe for gothic3 they wouldn't make an german version so they can devote themselves to english version  ?
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Team wins a war, not an individual. |
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Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:59 pm |
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Spunior
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 117
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Of course, the marketing for the first part was quite weak. It's good to see the Gothic II banners at various sites such as Shacknews. However, potential gains through marketing are probably lost again because of the decision to delay the US release instead of releasing it the same time the UK version was launched. Which again means that there's quite a number of US gamers that didn't want to wait and got the UK version through GoGamer and other import stores. Which again will affect the sales of the US version.
Another thing I noted is that G2 (like G1) is received in a different way by the media. Check the German Gothic 2 site and take a look at the review scores on the right side. Average score has to be around 90. Now take a look at the current English reviews at Gamerankings and you see it's currently at 78 (average score). One wonders if the scores were different had Gothic 2 been a game made by a major US company. Whatever. Almost everyone I know loves the game, but you don't see that reflected in the average score. And the 62 score in one of the biggest UK mags certainly was a joke but also a nice blow to the marketing. |
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Sat Oct 11, 2003 9:47 pm |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Spunior
. Which again means that there's quite a number of US gamers that didn't want to wait and got the UK version through GoGamer and other import stores. Which again will affect the sales of the US version.
True, but do you think that our numbers are significant enough to really make a difference? The only ones who knew that you could get it from gogamer were the hardcore US fans that visited Internet sites for information about Gothic. This excludes the casual game buyer and even those that usually buy CRPGs, but know nothing about Gothic.
Of course, I could be wrong. When gogamer got the game it sold quite briskly for a while. That initial surge of purchaes from North American folks might have been a big deal.
_________________
All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:22 pm |
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Spunior
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 117
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quote:
This excludes the casual game buyer and even those that usually buy CRPGs, but know nothing about Gothic.
The question is whether Gothic II will actually reach the casual gamer. Gothic I didn't do that at all. And while I think that promotion through fans will help Gothic 2 more than it did in the case of the prequel, chances are all that will make not a huge difference if Atari doesn't start advertising the game outside web publications. Have they done that? (I wouldn't know that since I'm not living there.) Another point is that sales might have been better in the US had they released in July for other reasons. Falls and winter traditionally happen to be a strong seasons for games, and now many players are saving their money for the PC version of Knights of the Old Republic and the Morrowind Gold Edition. (Just to name RPG, not even mention strong titles from other genres.) Both are a lot more popular in NA, both also ring a bell for the casual gamer thanks to a known license, being made by NA companies and also being available for Xbox. |
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Sun Oct 12, 2003 1:29 pm |
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Arrowhead
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 28
Location: Seattle, WA |
Reaching the casual gamer would seem to be the goal of any publisher "High exposure=Better sales"..............or does it? I think the fans of G1/G2 type of games are not in the "casual gamer" catagory. It takes patience and alot of creative thinking for RPG playing, a quality that developes and doesn't just happen.
I agree about Atari but until the game news web sites fairly report on all games (with or without a push from promoters) there will be alot of good game slip through the mida crack.
_________________
It's a Dragon you idiot.............RUN |
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Sun Oct 12, 2003 3:35 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Interesting topic. 
JoWooD + G1:
For the 250th time: JoWooD has nothing to do with Gothic 1! Nothing!
JoWooD + G2:
JoWooD is only the publisher in the German market. Atari is the _worldwide_ publisher of the English version. This includes Europe and Australia.
G3 ... no German version and concentrate on the English one:
You must be joking. Ignoring the primary market doesnīt make any sense at all.
G2 ... US hardcore gamers buy the UK version:
This will only have minimum effect on the US sales numbers. To quote a developer (on a completely different subject  ) "Hardcore gamers are not a part of the target audience!"
The reason is simple. The devs canīt pay their bills from sales to 10.000 hardcore RPGers. The casual gamer counts. Joe Average doesnīt read reviews, buys more or less spontaneously because he thinks a game looks cool BUT he can be influenced by marketing and 'opinion leaders', in this case his hardcore friend who knows whatīs good.
This is G2īs chance. Word of mouth is excellent and G1 was a sleeper hit. Hit is of course relative to the size of the publisher and the gameīs origin.
The three most important things for a G2 success in the US are:
1. shelf space
2. marketing
3. patience
The game will sell constantly for the next 12 months if availabily stays on an acceptable level.
Given that G2 most likely had an extremely low budget I think itīs safe to assume German sales alone were enough to cover production costs. So 100k units for an ASP of 20$ over the next 12 months will be a nice gimmick.
The casual gamer thing is even more obvious if you try to calculate how many Harry Potter units EA has to sell to reach the break even. The budget is 12(!) Mio $. Plus marketing, license and manufacturing.
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:18 pm |
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Angelo
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 108
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Why is Atari the worldwdie publisher for gothic? Atari sounds like a crappy company for producing console games  . No wonder English version of G2 has so many bugs!
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Team wins a war, not an individual. |
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Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:43 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Well, at least Atari bought some ad space in my copy of PC Gamer this month. I never saw any advertising for Gothic 1.
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Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:55 pm |
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Angelo
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 108
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This sucks. Gothic should really have more attention. I bet a lot of people dont even know about it.
_________________
Team wins a war, not an individual. |
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Sun Oct 12, 2003 5:04 pm |
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Hagen
Counselor of the King
Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 350
Location: England |
Morrowind, massive sales, lots of publicity...
But morrowind is the product of a game developer and series of games that stretches back for years...
Gothic 1 was parahna bites first really 'big' game...sales werent expected to be massive... Gothic 2, sales were alot better... how do i know that? developers wont consider releasing a expansion unless they knew the game was a success and can predict that sales will be at least half what the game got.
I have no problem saying that a gothic 3, we could expect bigger sales... and a gothic 4... (providing the devs didnt start churnin out crap, and kept bringing out their current standard of excellence.) and when we reach gothic 4, or pirahan bites make their 3rd-4th big game, get a name for themselves, thats when youll see the massive sales dont make the mistake of expecting big sales straight away.
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"There are many questions which fools can ask that wise men cannot answer."
--George Polya (1887-1985) |
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Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:15 pm |
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Spunior
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 117
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quote:
I have no problem saying that a gothic 3, we could expect bigger sales... and a gothic 4
The Gothic series was designed to be a trilogy. Gothic 4 is unlikely to happen. Of course, there might be another game in the same universe, but that probably will have a different title. Or Piranha Bytes is going to go for a completely new setting afterwards. |
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Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:24 pm |
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Scott
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Posts: 31
Location: Colorado |
I hate to say it, but I think Gothic one didn't sell and didn't get the exposure it "deserved" because it sucked.
Ok, I know, some loon out there with waaay too much coffee and time on his hands is gonna blast me, but lets look at a few big things here with Gothic one first.
Controls-What controls? The game had control options like Doom 1
Graphics-Well, they were O-K but nothing special. (about the same as Wizardry 
Gameplay-This is where I have most of my problems. The whole "smoke some swampgrass" thing made me feel like I was playing a game designed by teenagers who still somehow thought smoking dope was a cool thing. Well, its not cool, its just juvenile.
After doing untold numbers of quests, and proving myself in the old camp, I finally get to meet the "big boss" and my character's opening line was "What's up?" Now, stop me if I'm wrong, but, doesn't that sound slightly, um, out of place? (juvenile)
I will say (and I dont mean this as a jab at anyone!) that if I was a swamp grass smoking teenager again, I would have probably loved this game. However, if things are anything now like they were when I was younger, if you had extra money, it sure wasn't spent on a game. It was spent in new ways of figuring out how to catch that "perfect buzz."
Maybe that's why Gothic didn't sell better. Or maybe it was just because all the old farts like me, warned all the other old farts away from the game. Even at 9 bucks a shot for Gothic now, you'd get better entertainment by smoking the box.
But then again, I didn't like Baldur's Gate one OR two. I think the most overlooked RPG's are games like the entire Wizardry series, and D.W. Bradley's "Wizards and Warriors". Those felt like games that were made by adults, for adults to me. Right down to the warning label on the side of the box telling people that the Wizardry series was for "Advanced RPGers Only"
I really miss those days.
One last thing...I would like to add the game Rune to the list above of the FPS-RPG style games. It was one of the best to come along since Whichaven 
Thanks for reading
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The arrows flew at us so thick as to blot out the sun, so I says to young Angus, "Well, at least now we'll be fighting in the shade." |
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Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:06 am |
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