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RPGDot Forums > Absolutely Off Topic

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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
On the Razorblade of Life




Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia
   

While at my age, I prefer TB, so long as there is some sort of pause feature, I'm OK with RT. Games like BG and DD weren't a problem. I love RPG's, so I'll buy any that don't get a total thumbs down. Though somehow I slipped up on PoR2. That was TB, but oh so slow and BORING and DULL!!!!
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Post Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:15 am
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Roqua
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump
   

I agree Dhruin, there just isn't a quality turn-based title to compare to. Until there is a big budget, bug-free, quality turn-based title made we can't really say how it will/would do. The problem is a dev house securing the debt to produce such a game.

Is the turn-based fans more numerous than anyone thinks? Are they the silent majority? I have heard that the average gamer is a 26 year old male proffesional; maybe he likes turn-based RPGs but is not a vocal or active forum user. I wasn't until I got married, but I have visited this site way before I ever posted. I read the web reviews of games, and I knew what was going on in the gaming world (or what part of it interested me), but posting was something I just never cared to do. So how trustworthy are the opinions of the vocal market?

Plus I think Namirrha is putting too much stock in marketing. All the marketing function does is take the taste and preferences bullet of the demand curve and try to figure it out and minipulate it. So marketers are like focused economists. But do turn-based fans need anyone telling them what their taste and preferences are and that they want a turn-based, quality RPG like Realms of Arkania or Fall Out? No need to twist my arm.


What suckers me into buying the crap games I buy is the positive fan feedback and "glowing" reviews I read of games Diablo 2, not the marketing. If you like it that is great, but in no review did I read that the game was aimed at people with a 5th grade education and short attention spans that like to drink potions and click the mouse button a lot. But almost every review I read of games like ToEE claim it is way too hard on new players and has too steep of a learning curve. Too steep of a learning curve for who? The 5th grade Diablo fans? People like what they like, but I do not see how the target market has changed so drastically for RPG fans over the years. The core fans are there and waiting for a new Fall Out or whatever. The Diablo and BG fans are the newcomers.

And I see the turn-based RPG market as the same thing as the fantasy movie market. The Lord of the Rings proved that fantasy movies can make big money. Conan also proved it. And the Clash of the Titans proved it before that. But between those movies comes crap fantasy movies like Krull and Dungeons and Dragons that do horrible so no one will make fantasy movies. Now we will be inindated by them, probably. Until people think the market is set and fans will just watch it no matter the quality and then some flop and no one makes them anymore.

But I am also kind of drunk and way to full on Cadberry Eggs and stuffing so I have no idea if anything I posted is coherent. But one point to make is the selling power of the poorly marketed PT Cruser. It flew off lots and the demand was so high for them that they sold for $10 grand above ticket price. I bet the market anaysis showed that there was little demand for an ugly piece of old looking crap like that. But reality proved different. People love it. I'm not one of them, and I don't understand it, but people love em and are willing to spend a lot for them.
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Post Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:57 am
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Roqua
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump
   

quote:
Originally posted by corwin
While at my age, I prefer TB, so long as there is some sort of pause feature, I'm OK with RT. Games like BG and DD weren't a problem. I love RPG's, so I'll buy any that don't get a total thumbs down. Though somehow I slipped up on PoR2. That was TB, but oh so slow and BORING and DULL!!!!


I was going to say that you being a Pastor and all should want people to be able to put up with boring and dull. But you are also from Australia so you could have found a way to make church exciting by calling the cross a flim-flam-wazzly-doo, and recieving the host is called brippity-flamfoozle-boozle-titery-bam-bo-eatery.

I wish you and Dhruin would put the crazy Australian talk into your posts.
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Post Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:04 am
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
On the Razorblade of Life




Joined: 10 Jun 2002
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Location: Australia
   

I, am never dull and boring, well almost never anyways. I don't know what you mean by Aussie speak, we talk just like you do, but with a better accent.
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Post Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:41 am
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats




Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos
   

quote:
Originally posted by corwin
I don't know what you mean by Aussie speak, we talk just like you do, but with a better accent.


Considering that Australians are the descendants of English criminals, who probably weren't educated, and we Americans are descendents of religious zealots, then I would think that we would have the better accent.

@Roqua- It scared me when you said that Conan the Barbarian was a good movie, because that was a bad movie, but then I saw that you said that you're drunk. . .
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Post Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:34 pm
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Roqua
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump
   

You don't like Conan? Corwin should excommunicate you. That is one of the greatest movies ever made. Corwin, tell mageoffire what happens to people who don't like Conan when they die. There is a special place in hell set aside for them, huh?
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Post Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:57 pm
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
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Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah.
   

quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
Is the turn-based fans more numerous than anyone thinks? Are they the silent majority? I have heard that the average gamer is a 26 year old male proffesional; maybe he likes turn-based RPGs but is not a vocal or active forum user. I wasn't until I got married, but I have visited this site way before I ever posted. I read the web reviews of games, and I knew what was going on in the gaming world (or what part of it interested me), but posting was something I just never cared to do. So how trustworthy are the opinions of the vocal market?


It depends on which vocal market you go to. If I stop by the RPGCodex boards, many posters there will argue that the only RPG worth playing is turn-based, post-apocalyptic/science fiction, first-person RPGs are action/shooter games, and that fantasy games are mostly boring, cliched, and worthless. If I come here, I hear from many that the Gothic games are good, that I should give Arx Fatalis a try, and even that "Diablo clones" like Divine Divinity might be worth my time. Try recommending Divine Divinity or Sacred to someone at RPGCodex. If I visit another message board, which I spend more time on, the majority of posters think that Baldur's Gate 2, Sacred, and Divine Divinity are good or great games, and fewer of them like turn-based combat games. To whom do I listen?

quote:
Plus I think Namirrha is putting too much stock in marketing. All the marketing function does is take the taste and preferences bullet of the demand curve and try to figure it out and minipulate it. So marketers are like focused economists. But do turn-based fans need anyone telling them what their taste and preferences are and that they want a turn-based, quality RPG like Realms of Arkania or Fall Out? No need to twist my arm.


Marketing and advertising is a critical part of any business. My parents run a foreign food store in our town. When we don't advertise, we lose many customers who would've been interested to coming to our store. I've seen it in past years. Now with newspaper and telephone book ads, our business has increased, so that we are not losing money anymore. At least for our kind of business, which does not supply any essentials (people can do without European chocolates, Asian foods, and other goodies), it is necessary. We do not have a captive audience. And we have bills and salaries to pay. Without enough income, we go bankrupt. Simple enough. Marketing serves more functions than you acknowledge. Like I mentioned before, its most important functions are to spread the word and to inform possible consumers. Whether it does so honestly or deceptively is another matter.

quote:
What suckers me into buying the crap games I buy is the positive fan feedback and "glowing" reviews I read of games Diablo 2, not the marketing.


Before I buy games, I visit review sites I trust and talk with friends who have similar tastes, so I can predict how I'll like a product. This is not the fault of the product, and not your fault as a customer. It was a bad bit of luck based on its incompatibility with your tastes. BTW, I don't like Diablo 2 too much either, but I do respect the quality and effort Blizzard put into it.

quote:
Too steep of a learning curve for who? The 5th grade Diablo fans? People like what they like, but I do not see how the target market has changed so drastically for RPG fans over the years. The core fans are there and waiting for a new Fall Out or whatever. The Diablo and BG fans are the newcomers.


I hardly think this is fair to Diablo or BG fans. When I tried Diablo 2, of course I found many questionable people, but I also found several intelligent and engaging people who were not 5th grade holdbacks. Unless you count college students, computer programmers, and a PhD student 5th graders.

I don't think it's a good comparison. But I believe that one can create or expand a market with proper encouragement. A Lord of the Rings movie would've been hard to get off the ground in the '60s or '70s, when the whole fantasy, D&D, and Tolkien movements were largely underground or considered fads. But a generation later, where parents have told their children to read Tolkien's classic, and friends cannot stop recommending it to one another, now has the stage been set. Not only that, more than being just fantasy, movies like the Lord of the Rings trilogy are great movies in every sense that rise above the muck that Hollywood puts out. With a strong story, actors, special effects, feelings, and character. Tolkien's story and ideas are universal.

The PT Cruiser struck a chord in the American psyche. It is a throwback to the classic American cars of yore, and it looks novel compared to most modern cars. It is an affordable, "high class," modern "collector's item." It's not really a surprise that it became popular, IMO.

BTW, Conan is a fun movie if there ever was one, in its cheesy goodness. Where else can you see a man bite the head off a vulture?
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Post Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:02 pm
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Roqua
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump
   

In the case you described for your parents business they were trying to get the word out. In the case of turn-based rpgs, people are searching for the word. I hear about every rpg way before a dollar is spent on marketing.

One of the functions of marketing is to minipulate tastes and preferences. RPG players have all ready turned their noses on what is "super-cool" by playing dorky rpgs. Our taste and preferences have not been minipulated by marketers enough for them to tell us what we want. We want rpgs and we want them extra dorky, with gay pirates, rats in the cellar, spell casting elves, and cute little gnomes.

Turn-based fans are in a deprived market which makes them active lookers. Marketing would not create a want for them, much as a starving man watching a McDonalds commercial. The want is there, we are actively looking for something to fullfil the the want. So in our case, the only function marketing would serve is product awarness and knowledge.

Now seeing if you are a crpg fan, chances are you have the internet and check news sites. Add to this the deprived market making the turn-based crpg fans active searchers, adds up to money being wasted on a product awarness campaign.

Now if you were to create a FPS property when many other FPS's were being created marketing would serve a large function and be much more important. You would have to make players aware of your game and then convince the players to spend their gaming dollar on your game. You would spend enough on marketing that economic profit is wasted away, as is detailed in a perfectly competitive market model. The key word there is competitive. The turn based market is not competitive at all.

But not being a marketer, all I say is my own crap opinion. And there is a big hole in my arguement. Your parents have a specialty store. It probably has its core customers, but to be profitable you needed to advertise to raise awarness and create a want and desire to buy your product (minipulating taste and preferncess), which brings in more customers which after a certain point pay for the marketing and pay the bills. Specialty stores cater to a niche market. My whole arguement is about niche markets.

But the medium is different and all the reviews, interviews, diaries, and blah-blah-blah are free advertisment for games. Where your parents have to pay money to advertise in any medium they would want to. Also, Euro chocalates and Asian foods usually aren't a time consuming, life-long hobby that people waste countless hours on not just playing, but discussing.

So, we are both right, and both wrong in our opinions. With no way for one to prove the other factually wrong. Unless quality, turn-based rpgs started to be made, in which case I would love to be proven factually wrong as long as I had a game to play that a liked for a little while.
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Post Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:57 am
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
On the Razorblade of Life




Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia
   

Does it count that I still have all the original Conan books by Robert Howard?

Great discussion guys and Roqua I like the way you argue both sides of the issue. However, as a TB guy, what was your take on PoR2?
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Post Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:12 am
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Roqua
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump
   

For the $50 dollars I paid for it, horrible. There was a very limited amount of input or choices at character creation, and none at all at lvl-up. The combat speed was rediculously slow. And the huge dungeons (at least in the beggining) were very intimidating and tedious. There was way to little NPC interaction, and half the time I recieved or finished a quest I didn't know it.

But about three months ago I bought it in the used bin for $5 dollars. With the speed hack it is faster and more enjoyable. I got more than $5 dollars worth of play and enjoyment out of it. But it is a crappy game when all is said and done.
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Post Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:51 am
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
On the Razorblade of Life




Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia
   

I agree. I really wanted to like that game and I really tried to keep playing it, but eventually I gave up in total frustration. Most boring game I've ever played. You could read War and Peace sometimes during just one round of combat!!
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Post Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:16 am
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