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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
In several threads recently where we've been talking about how to "do things right" in an RPG, lots of different people (myself included) keep refering to M&M. I'm probably a M&M fanboy (MM7 is my all-time favorite game), but it's interesting how often MM is held up as an example of the right way to do things.
My deep thought for your examination: Isn't is unusual (and terribly sad) that a series that lots of people think were top-notch RPGs has fallen so badly? How does a company that seems to know the secret formula (yes, the graphics blew, but the games were just flat out fun to play) forget how to do it? While the financial demise of the company certainly explains the "rushed" feeling of MM8 and MM9, that really doesn't explain the design decisions that everyone seems to agree were steps backward.
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Thu Jul 18, 2002 4:50 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
Amen!
dteowner, you hit the nail on the head. It is very sad. I think M&M problems are mostly due to being rushed. But there are only a limited number of new ideas in a designer's head. You have to introduce improvements to a series to justify a new release. There comes a point where the designer is out of improvements, and changes things just for the sake of changing them and *calling* them improvements ... not because it makes a better product.
It is very sad that the M&M series fell so far. Parts of 9 recalled some of the fun of the earlier stuff, but that just made the rest of the game look that much worse. I think 8 was clunker because of poor play balance (getting a dragon PC was cool, but took all the challenge out), lack of *new* things (okay you got to play bad guys, but that was it), and a medicore story line. Gone was the HUGE world of 6 and the well integrated (though smaller) world of 7.
Anyway, it is very sad to see such a noble series fall so hard.
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Thu Jul 18, 2002 5:28 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
i have battled through Might and Magic 2-8, i like 2-7, (8 was too unbalanced). All these game worked wonderful with the *magic formula*:
do quests, get armor and weapons, fight, get experience, get better in skills and rank ->
do more quests, get better equipment, fight greater opponents ...
Always well balanced, non linear and challenging - a template (together with the Wizardry games) for a good rpg. Might & Magic games need no eye candy or great story the formula works for itself.
... and yes i am really sorry that this series goes down the drain 
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Thu Jul 18, 2002 5:38 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Lintra
But there are only a limited number of new ideas in a designer's head. You have to introduce improvements to a series to justify a new release. There comes a point where the designer is out of improvements, and changes things just for the sake of changing them and *calling* them improvements ... not because it makes a better product.
OK, but why do you really need improvements (I'm talking changes as opposed to minor "tweaks")? When you've got the "perfect" formula, why screw with it? It would seem that RPGs are really great for more-of-the-same type sequels. Give a different story, or a continuation of a previous story (ala BG)... Really no need to screw with the basic mechanics.
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Thu Jul 18, 2002 5:56 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
quote:
Originally posted by Lintra
But there are only a limited number of new ideas in a designer's head. You have to introduce improvements to a series to justify a new release. There comes a point where the designer is out of improvements, and changes things just for the sake of changing them and *calling* them improvements ... not because it makes a better product.
OK, but why do you really need improvements (I'm talking changes as opposed to minor "tweaks")? When you've got the "perfect" formula, why screw with it? It would seem that RPGs are really great for more-of-the-same type sequels. Give a different story, or a continuation of a previous story (ala BG)... Really no need to screw with the basic mechanics.
I don't need "improvements", nor do you, but I believe the community of critics do. Look at all the heat M&M took for not updating the graphics on #7. Very few reviews paid attention to the game system tweaks (bringing the char development to a near perfect tune) nor the vast improvement in story line over 6.
The attitude seems to be "Since this is the same game, why should I buy it?" totally ignoring the meat of the game, ie the system itself, the story line and the world underlying the story.
The problem is the sales are, to a large extent, a function of critical aclaim. No projected sales = no publisher will touch it.
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Thu Jul 18, 2002 6:03 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
I agree with much of what has been said. I will add this which I have found to be almost a collective "truism" that is being simply accepted without debate more and more these days. This I found as a poster in an engineering office, but I have seen it in one form or another in many very professional establishments.
"Change, in and of itself, is good."
The more we all accept this, even if simply by not speaking out against it, the more it will be true.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Jul 18, 2002 7:09 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Lintra
The attitude seems to be "Since this is the same game, why should I buy it?" totally ignoring the meat of the game, ie the system itself, the story line and the world underlying the story.
You just might be right... I've seen that sentiment time and again in reviews I read. Kinda reminds me of movie critics- if it's not "deep thoughts" or somehow cinematically innovative, it can't possibly be good- even if the people actually buying the tickets find it pleasant entertainment.
For that matter, I remember back when MM7 was released reading somewhere about a guy that saw one screenshot and declared that he would have no part of the game. It isn't just the reviewers. 
@Joey Nipps: Gotta watch out for us engineers- we can put together a spaceship, but we still can't seem to tighten that loose screw in our brainpans. 
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Thu Jul 18, 2002 8:46 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
For that matter, I remember back when MM7 was released reading somewhere about a guy that saw one screenshot and declared that he would have no part of the game. It isn't just the reviewers.
And don't forget the opposite which I have heard many times and find just as sad. "Just look at those screen shots - this is going to be a GREAT game!"
quote:
@Joey Nipps: Gotta watch out for us engineers- we can put together a spaceship, but we still can't seem to tighten that loose screw in our brainpans.
I DO watch out for engineers - it hurts a lot when they land on one's head having fallen off the ladder they said couldn't fall  .
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Jul 18, 2002 8:53 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
I DO watch out for engineers - it hurts a lot when they land on one's head having fallen off the ladder they said couldn't fall .
Ah, but see, the ladder is still standing! Success! Oh, you want the user to survive as well? 
Enough of that, eh? The off-topic police will be looking for us...
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Thu Jul 18, 2002 9:01 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
I think the key point with M&M, is money. That rules the roost. M&M9 was UNFINISHED. That is obvious to any of us who have played the entire series. It was obviously rushed out the door, with no hype, to garner a few quick bucks to help alleviate the financial problems of the parent company and screw the gaming public. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the game for what it was, but it fell FAR short of what it could/should have been.
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Sat Jul 20, 2002 12:24 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I agree with MM9 being unfinished. The point I was getting at is this: How can a company that did an automap quite well (MM8) develop one that is practically worthless (MM9)? How can they have a wide range of classes that play differently (MM7) and then drop back to 2 classes (I'm not sure exactly how to count the promotions- they're different from promos in MM7 and 8, but I don't know that the difference is enough to say you have 8 classes in MM9 but not say you've got 27 in MM7 [9 classes, 3 promos each])
I could understand the financial issues causing NWC to release a game too soon that was a poorly executed more-of-the-same (kinda like MM8  ), but I don't know why, if they were rushed, they'd try (unsuccessfully) to reinvent the wheel.
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sat Jul 20, 2002 12:37 am |
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Lord Puck
Head Merchant
Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 56
Location: Center Ice |
I agree.M&M VI was my favorite RPG of all time.M&M VII was allright too.It is sad that a company that did a great job,in years past has fallen to this level.M&M VI was a great game.  |
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Sun Jul 21, 2002 4:42 am |
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Bach & Baroque
Village Leader
Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 86
Location: United States |
I've only been played it about 2 and a half hours so far, but I really cannot see what is everybody's problem with MMIX is. Frankly, I think it's great so far! Sophisticated and expansive but easy interface, awesome controls, solid voice-acting, great graphics (that are ultra fast on my Pentium 1.7, Geforce 2, 256 ram), cliched but good story, great world and atmosphere ... I admit I haven't played any former M&M's but I'm having a grand old time. It ain't no Gothic, but some people are being way, way too harsh. |
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Sun Jul 21, 2002 5:55 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
quote:
Originally posted by Lintra
The attitude seems to be "Since this is the same game, why should I buy it?" totally ignoring the meat of the game, ie the system itself, the story line and the world underlying the story.
You just might be right... I've seen that sentiment time and again in reviews I read. Kinda reminds me of movie critics- if it's not "deep thoughts" or somehow cinematically innovative, it can't possibly be good- even if the people actually buying the tickets find it pleasant entertainment.
It's true that sometimes people go a little overboard in their need to have a dramatic innovation in a creative work, be it a game or a movie. I do think it is better to produce a quality "formula" type of a piece than it is to present an unbalanced and sloppy "innovative" work. However, if you look closely, I'm sure that Might and Magic 7 is probably more innovative than you think, if you like it so much. Innovative in terms of an evolution (not revolution) of gameplay and story. I find it hard to really love games that aren't innovative in some ways; the uniqueness of a creation is what makes us so attached to it. I can like something that is basically a polished copy of a good formula, and I can enjoy playing it; however, once I'm done with it, it won't be memorable for me at all.
This is basically the same thing with me and movies. I can watch, say, a James Bond flick and enjoy myself, but really, they don't hold any special interest for me and it's entirely missable. Only the really distinct pieces make any sort of permanent imprint, like Forrest Gump, Memento, My Life as a Dog (Swedish), Amelie, The Shawshank Redemption, just to give a diverse idea of what I'm into.
It doesn't have to be entirely revolutionary for me to like it (Baldur's Gate 2 is a great example), but it has to be refined enough to have its own distinct style.
- Wind |
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Sun Jul 21, 2002 9:43 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Bach & Baroque
I've only been played it about 2 and a half hours so far, but I really cannot see what is everybody's problem with MMIX is. Frankly, I think it's great so far! Sophisticated and expansive but easy interface, awesome controls, solid voice-acting, great graphics (that are ultra fast on my Pentium 1.7, Geforce 2, 256 ram), cliched but good story, great world and atmosphere ... I admit I haven't played any former M&M's but I'm having a grand old time. It ain't no Gothic, but some people are being way, way too harsh.
I think you'll find the biggest complaints coming from the long-time fans of the series. Taken as a single entity standing on its own, MM9 could be pretty good. In the shadow of the previous entries in the series, it is really a disappointment. That may be a case of the previous entries being so good (IMO) more than MM9 being so bad, but the difference is noteable.
What do you think of the automap? Notice that north on the map isn't always north for your party? Wouldn't it be nice if the map showed what buildings were what? Wouldn't it be nice if the map was fogged over until you explored an area, both from a realism standpoint as well as a way to know where you'd been? Wouldn't it be nice if you could put notes on the map? All these things were possible in MM8, but are not now. That's the kind of thing that has the fans of the series steamed.
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Sun Jul 21, 2002 5:37 pm |
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