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Krogon
Guest
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| I don't care what you think Jung |
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Just expressing my opinion. Everyone already knows why it is great. Nothing more needs to be said. To be honest Jung I comment like this because these threads are rediculous! Gothic fanboys come over to put down Morrowind. Personally I enjoy both games and hope Gothic 2 will be open ended and as good as morrowind. The more games the better. I also hope NWN does really well too. You can continue to put me down Jung or anyone else for my comments. No biggie, I am just having fun here. I mean this is a game were talking about isn' it? |
Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:49 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Gothic fanboys, Morrowind fanboys, ignorants, mindless dumbs...
...hmm I do not like thread when you call each other like this.
I will lock it. You can send me PM if you think I should open it again...hehe :]. Ofcourse with good arguments why I should do it.
Ofcourse it has nothing to do with my personal opinion on MW Llama and Krogon has same right to express their feelings... |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:53 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Ok, I will unlock this thread again, probably it wasnt right thing to close it.
Just keep your arguments inside area where they can be called arguments and not presonal offences.
Btw.
Morrowind rulezzzz
Oh, sorry, this wasnt argument :]. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:43 am |
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Danny
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Posts: 45
Location: Alblasserdam, The Netherlands |
quote:
Originally posted by Danicek
Morrowind rulezzzz
Ok, now you've done it
Where is the local lockmaker? 
_________________
Ankh-Morpork had dallied with many forms of government and had ended up with that form of democracy known as One Man, One Vote. The Patrician was the Man; he had the Vote. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:03 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
quote:
Originally posted by Danny
Where is the local lockmaker?
I do not know :-]. Probably on vacation. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:38 am |
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bpdlr
Village Dweller
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 24
Location: London UK |
| Back on topic? The flaws... |
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OK, I'd like to get back onto the topic of why some people are getting bored of Morrowind. These are my personal observations (and I'm still playing it, although that's until I get my copy of Neverwinter Nights).
a) Lack of dynamism: however Fed-Ex the quests are or are not, it would be nice if your actions actually had an effect on the game world. You lead a pilgrim to a shrine: he stays outisde the entrance for the rest of the game. You steal a goblet for a poor priest; the priest stays in the same place and says "Thanks for the goblet!" every time you talk to her again. Etc. etc.
b) Lack of NPC agendas: forget about NPCs going to bed at night, what about them actually following up on their stated agenda? The biggest example of this for me is the lack of aggression from the Camona Tong after you single-handedly wipe out one of their main bases! Stroll into the Ald'ruhn Camona Tong base and it's all smiles!!!
c) Stupid animals: fish and Dreughs out of the water, suicidal Racers, Netches stuck in trees, etc.
d) Broken exp. system: no point in going past lvl 20. Nuff said.
e) Unbalanced magic: the magic system is another whole can of worms that I'm not going to go into here. But the balance between Alchemy, Enchantement and the normal method of casting spells is fatally flawed. The balance between effects is flawed too: Absorb Health costs as much to enchant as Damage Health, and is ten times more effective!
f) Broken economic model: I think the developers spent the least time on this game working out the economic system. What is the point of having items costing 200K when the highest any vendor has is 9K? Why does enchanting an item not add to its value? Why the appalling inconsistency in the range of armour and weapons?
g) Non-scalable graphics engine: enough said elsewhere about this.
h) unrealistic land textures: nice water, shame about the flat landscape with dirty-brown grass.
That's all for now.
_________________
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BaZ
Boycott Shampoo!
Demand REAL poo! |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 1:44 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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Why-oh-why do I like this shitty game so much... 
All the points you name are valid. I noticed them and especially the first one (NPC you escorted staying there without fulfilling their stated objective) bugged me too. But I still find an awfull lot in the game that draws me in. I guess it has a lot do do with having played Daggerfall so long. What appears broken when you describe it is still a huge improvement over that game. And there is still the freedom, the beauty, the mood, that I like more than almost any other game. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 2:51 pm |
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Garon
Guest
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You've made some good points, bpdlr. It would be nice to see a little more conclusion to all the quests or to see more intermember support inside factions.
As for the Camonna Tong, I'm not really sure what I should expect of them. After I wiped out the Balmora base, I did notice that dispositions were low everywhere else. Definitely not all smiles. They didn't attack me on sight, but then again, I'm not sure that I would have attacked me on sight either. I had just wiped out a whole base of Camonna Tong, and why should the Ald'ruhn (however you spell it. . . ) group feel any more lucky than the Balmora bunch. I suppose the most realistic response would be for them to all go into hiding somewhere, because they knew that an effective killer was out killing their guild mates by the dozen.
Good points with your stupid animals. Bad pathfinding and geometry faults will hopefully improve with patches. The cliff racers, to me, are like mosquitos. Very annoying, but not very dangerous. Mosquitos are stupid too in real life. But then again, some people might not like mosquitos in their games. You could mod them out, I suppose, if it really bothers you, or you could wait, and hopefully the developers will address this issue. I usually just use public transportation or sneak and avoid them altogether.
Regarding the levelling, I think we get a little hung up on levelling, but it isn't quite as important in this game as we're accustomed to. Levelling really only affects your total hitpoints and, to an extent, the sum of your attribute scores. It would probably be better to say, "Combat is trivial for the most part after your long blade and heavy armor skill is higher than X." And this I could agree with. You will still have deficient skills in either your primary or secondary group, however, so to say that there is no reason to go past level 20 is a little simplistic. That said, I agree with you that Bethesda should pay more attention to higher level characters, and hopefully they will deliver with either plug-ins or a patch. If not, well, I'll just play challenging characters until I get bored or move on. I climbed from level 1 to the high 30s just doing the main quest, thieves guild quests, and Hlallu quests, and I had fun well past level 20. Achieving reputation and strongholds and guild rankings was, to me, more fun than levelling. I consider it a score, or something.
The magic system and economy could both use some work, as you indicated. I think the term fatally flawed is a bit too strong, though. The scenery is a little drab at times, but it gives the world a sort of "alien" feel that I like. And at times, while winding through the mountains, I've wished the landscape was more flat, not less as you seem to want. Or perhaps you meant flat as in color. . . hmmmm.
Anyway, I enjoyed your post. I have had a wonderful time with Morrowind even with its faults. I hope you do too--until NWN hits the stores, anyway.
Regards,
Garon |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 4:11 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
This "NPC's stay in place after quest" is a little irritating, yes. They could have been just removed, and it would have been a short script, nothing too hard to do.
However, some of the things people ask of the game are nearly impossible to code. For example: people go in hiding after a base is wiped out. Ever thought about how to implement that? I think some people are asking way too much - most of all because no other game has succeeded in doing what is asked for. Take Gothic for example: people complained that the "schedules" were so repetetive - but how to change that? There is only so much possible nowadays. and we will have to wait a couple of years until what we envision can be done.
What's most important to me: Morrowind is a fabolous package. While it has flaws in some areas (and people disagree on which areas these are), it provides fun as a whole, and a lot of. Not for everyone, for sure, but it receives praise from reviewers and sells extremely well - so they must have done something right, right? 
Neverwinter Nights - well, I hope it provides as much fun as Morrowind provides, at least for me. I am confident it will, and I am confident for Gothic 2 as well.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 5:45 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
Not for everyone, for sure, but it receives praise from reviewers and sells extremely well - so they must have done something right, right?
By any chance do you wear rose tinted glasses too  ? This is non-logic. There are many, many reasons something (games, movies, etc.) gets good reviews and sells well in today's markets - surely we all know that.
Why did I buy it and why (most likely) did most people buy this game? It is very simple - we all WANT it to be a good game because that is what we are -- gamers. Specifically, many (if not most) of us are fans of CRPGs - and as we all know there are precious few entries in this category each year. Thus, by the time any RPG hits the market (even without MAJOR hype by the company) we are all foaming at the mouth. We want it and we want it now and we want it to be great. This game was guaranteed to be a sales success before any of us saw the game at all. The vast majority of potential buyers for this (and any other CRPG) are going to buy the game regardless - particularly one from a major company like this one. But the sales in NO WAY is a logical indicator of the quality of the game (in either direction). For a wide variety of practical reasons wonderful, high quality products (games and otherwise) do not make sales success - and vice versa. Sales figures and/or media hype (including reviews) are NO indicators of the relative or absolute quality of a product.
Remember, the Ford Escort was an amazingly successful automobile from a sales point of view - that did not make it nor does it indicate the true quality of the vehicle. It was a poor vehicle by virtually all reasonable standards of what makes a good car - but it sold well.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:08 pm |
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maddog0606
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 20
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I don't have much experience in these types of games. I'm more into strategy and tactical war games put out by companys like HPS and Battlefront and flight sims like IL2. That being said I did love the Ultima Underworld games so decided to take the plunge with Morrowind.
Yes, the NPCs can be irritating and moronic at times. Yes, being a FEDEX guy is a pain (and now I understand why they are sometimes in a bad mood). Yes, the loopholes in the game are very tempting to use (and I have used them). But any game that can keep me interested since the day it came out (over a month now) and makes me stay up till 1AM can not be all that bad.
Personally, I got my monies worth and am not disappointed in the least. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:17 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Joey, I think you miss the point. First of all, why should 99% of the reviewers give Morrowind praise if they wouldn't feel the game deserves it? Check the review section of Morrowind.com - do you think these sites employ idiots - every single one of them? I don't think so. And if you take time to read these reviews, actually, you'll see that they all say about the same thing: Morrowind has some weak points, but the package as a whole is an excellent CRPG. And I second that, as you can see by my own review.
You are right if you say high sales aren't saying that a game is a good one, but high sales and high ratings in about all reviews together - how could that mean that the game isn't good?
It's a common misconception that because you don't like a game it must be a bad game. I'll give you an example: I don't like Dungeon Siege very much, but I will always admit that it is an excellent game for its genre. I like, for some obscure reasons, Stronghold very muich - but I don't think it's a game worth mentioning a lot
That's my point of view. And I stand to it.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:32 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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One last time. I like this game. I know many who like it. I even know many who think its the best game ever. Not all of them knew about the game before and were "foaming at the mouth". There is plenty of player reviews out there to the same effect if you care to look. Further it has not receive a single score below the equivalent of 75%, I think with many in the 80s from every gaming site I heard about, and many of these take their reviewing serious. I accept gladly that YOU dont like it, but I refuse to accept that this means that its not a good game.
I, personally knew very well what I would be getting with this game, I knew what was in and what was out. I knew the NPCs wouldnt be like Gothics. I knew there were little to no daily schedules. I knew there was no climbing and no sitting and no werewolves and all the other things we talked about on the official forums. So, the view I had of the game was mostly realistic. But fact remains that there are many people out there like this game and think its good points far outweigh the weaknesses you keep pointing out, whether they knew what to expect or not. I see those weaknesses, but I wouldnt hesitate one second to recommend this game. Everyone who is remotely interested in RPing should try it out. Some won't like it, obviously, but many, probably most will find something memorable in this game. And this is a reason why this game sells so well, because most people would recommend it.
Maybe your glasses are a bit too dark, Joey Nipps? |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:38 pm |
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bman
Guest
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Rendelius hit the nail on the head.
A good reviewer is capable of looking at things objectively and determining their quality from an artistic point of view without putting their personal prejudices into it.
Morrowind is not perfect, but I don't have much sympathy for those who get a ruby but are angry that it is not a diamond.
Moreover, most of the faults can be patched. Serious design flaws are such that they could never be patched away. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:23 pm |
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Garon
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
However, some of the things people ask of the game are nearly impossible to code. For example: people go in hiding after a base is wiped out. Ever thought about how to implement that? I think some people are asking way too much - most of all because no other game has succeeded in doing what is asked for.
Just to clarify, Rendelius, that was merely a thought experiment, not something I expected Bethesda to implement. I'm personally quite satisfied with the game, other than the wimpy crime system.
Garon |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:22 pm |
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